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-   -   Sondors 3-seater electric trike for $10,000 (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/sondors-3-seater-electric-trike-10-000-a-35853.html)

Xist 11-20-2017 01:58 PM

Sondors 3-seater electric trike for $10,000
 
6 Attachment(s)
Thanks to Rmay for bringing this to our attention. This is more than the Elio is claiming for a gasser, but less than the Arcimoto is charging for electric, and is wider than either. I think it looks like a double-wide Elio, with a similar rear. Their site [currently] only shows a grand total of eleven pictures and a link to this video. They really only say they have raised a million dollars through crowdfunding.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1511203866

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1511203981

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1511203927

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1511203910

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1511203866

More information: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d...3701_253g2.htm
https://www.startengine.com/sondorsc...ondors_website

I need to get back to work! :D

Xist 11-20-2017 02:15 PM

Quote:

From the offering circular:

The three-wheeled vehicle is designed to have the same standard comfort and functional features customers have come to expect in modern motor vehicles: air conditioning, heat, AM/FM stereo, power windows, power door lock, airbags, auxiliary port(s), anti-lock brakes, and traction control. We intend to offer additional optional luxury features such as leather seats, rear wheel drive, upgraded battery options for further range, and various exterior body aesthetic add-ons. As currently contemplated, further specifications include:

● Rear wheel drive with wheel hub motor
● Lithium Ion battery 0 to 60 Mph in 5-8 seconds
● Charge with standard 110V or 240V (2X charge)
● Three battery range options: 50, 100, and 200 miles
● Five color options: White, Black, Blue, Silver or Red
● Driver and passenger airbags
● Touch screen tablet monitor
● Push button start

Engineering and Development

Our development process comprises seven stages:

● Concept Design
● Engineering Analysis
● Detailed Design and Initial Prototype
● Production Prototype
● Design Validation and Testing
● Production Tooling
● Manufacturing
They state they are on the third phase.

Quote:

we are currently exploring bids and investigating options to contract with high quality manufacturers already equipped to produce a majority of the vehicle parts, and assemble our vehicles. In addition, while we are designing and will have specially manufactured several key components including our proprietary wheel hub motor, in order to reduce development costs, we intend to use certain parts that already exist, rather than designing all new parts.
Quote:

We intend to sell Model SONDORS primarily online. Our distribution model is designed to enable customers to choose specific options for their vehicles at the point-of-sale. Customers can then select from an extensive list of add-ons to customize their vehicles, and ultimately have the vehicle delivered directly to their home.
Quote:

For individuals who prefer to see the car in person before making a purchase, our longer term vision includes having information centers staffed with personnel who can answer questions, provide test drives, and assist in the purchasing process.
Quote:

We intend to provide customer service and technical support for our electric vehicles. Because of the simplicity of the vehicleís design, we believe some customers may elect to do their own maintenance and repair. In these cases, we intend to deliver parts directly to the customer and provide detailed maintenance and repair instructions. We intend to design the vehicle so the average consumer can replace many components within minutes. In certain areas, our plan is to enlist a service team of mobile technicians capable of performing most inspections and repairs on demand.
Quote:

We currently have no employees.

We use a team of approximately 15 engineers and designers who are independent contractors, and who under the direction of our CEO, are creating the designs for Model SONDORS. We also currently have a team of approximately 4 independent contractors who are performing marketing, public relations and advertising services.
Quote:

We face strong competition from [...] new entrants into the market such as Elio Motors.
[de-emphasis added]

"We do not currently intend to offer any form of direct financing on our vehicles."

"We are seeking $19,999,998 in funding"

They anticipate producing in April 2019.

Xist 11-20-2017 02:22 PM

While the offering circular states 50, 100, and 200-mile range, the crowdfunding page says "Lithium Ion battery with 75, 150, and 200 mile range."

"Most cars on the road today are over-engineered and have features that no one needs, wants, or uses."

"Many concept cars are created without ever considering how the car is actually going to be made."

"Our three wheel vehicle design also allows us to seek designation as an autocycle."

"Having bypassed investment in a cumbersome manufacturing infrastructure, once engineering and tooling is complete, we believe we will be positioned to begin assembling vehicles as early as April 2019."

"Our choice for the exterior has been inspired by Storm’s lifelong passion for Gran Turismo, but with a modern edge."

"The interior is designed to feel large and open, seating three adult-sized passengers. It’s simple and clean, yet intelligent and innovative. We’ve cut out the unnecessary bulkiness of today’s standard car interior."

Bulkiness?

"[W]e are not currently taking any deposits."

"We have no plans to take any pre-sales until our vehicle is ready for production."

Do any of you guys know Sondors electric bikes?

Grant-53 11-21-2017 05:44 PM

The price is in line with project trike cost estimates from Richard Q Riley or diesel car kit from John McCornack. The heating and A/C for an electric vehicle draw power. Most everything else is off the shelf or made with minimal capital investment. Don't expect a high volume of vehicles unless demand grows more rapidly than other trike motorcycles.

Xist 11-21-2017 06:06 PM

Yay! A response! :D

I think the Sondors will do slightly better. Having a third seat might have convinced some people to go for the original Insight. Having side-by-side seating should appeal to more people.

I am not sure how many people specifically want their passengers out of sight. I have been known to happily hold hands while I drive. That would be far more difficult in an Arcimoto.

Stubby79 11-22-2017 12:08 AM

I like it. But I wonder how aerodynamic it is, compared to a tandem 2-seater. That taper on the sides rear look too steep for maximum efficiency, though it should still be better than a 4-wheel design.

Hersbird 11-22-2017 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stubby79 (Post 554667)
I like it. But I wonder how aerodynamic it is, compared to a tandem 2-seater. That taper on the sides rear look too steep for maximum efficiency, though it should still be better than a 4-wheel design.

I thought the open wheel design of the elio was worse but I have no numbers one way or the other.

Ecky 11-22-2017 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stubby79 (Post 554667)
I like it. But I wonder how aerodynamic it is, compared to a tandem 2-seater. That taper on the sides rear look too steep for maximum efficiency, though it should still be better than a 4-wheel design.

Probably not very aerodynamic. I wouldn't want to widen the rear though, because it would greatly increase rollover risk.

This could be an excellent city car though, and one that is appropriate for traveling a couple of exits on the highway.

samwichse 11-22-2017 02:59 PM

Sondors has managed to deliver on its promises before.

But if the past is any indication, the specs will change after people invested to:

● Rear wheel drive with wheel hub motor
● Lithium Ion battery 0 to 60 Mph in 12-15 seconds
● Charge with standard 110V
● Three battery range options: 25, 50, and 100 miles
● One color option: Yellow
● Driver and passenger airbags?

Grant-53 11-22-2017 03:27 PM

A taper angle of 22 degrees in a boat tail is recommended. From "Aerodynamics of Road Vehicles" 5th Ed. pg 312

Xist 11-22-2017 05:16 PM

The price is in-line with self-assembled kit cars, but what about a production vehicle? Can he deliver a wider car with doors, etc. for less than the Arcimoto?

Hersbird 11-22-2017 06:42 PM

Judging from the bike shipping, the car will have a $2000 shipping charge.

Bill the Engineer 11-24-2017 08:35 PM

The Sondors looks too much like the Elio to me. Elio got $100.00 out of me for a T-Shirt and bumper sticker. Having the bad taste still in my mouth from Elio, the Sondors is going to need to be in full production before I would ever consider it, and it would need to show me how it is better than any of my Prius (Prii.)

Xist 11-24-2017 11:00 PM

On the one hand, Elio set the bar low, on the other hand, legitimate companies need to overcome their stigma.

Christopher Jordan 12-02-2017 12:50 PM

Sonders seems to have extra space that I want. I had that German City-el EV when Elio began. That City-el is not sold in the US and it barely had room. This waiting game for a 3-wheel vehicle is too long and too hard on the nerves! I hope Sonders makes it on time.

rmay635703 01-17-2018 08:04 AM

Niels original thread

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ats-35527.html

More Sondors propaganda

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2...ing-for-10000/

Christopher Jordan 01-17-2018 11:57 AM

Sonders is way too much like the parade of three-wheel vehicle builders wanting money first and foremost. At least 4 tried since 2007. Elioism is catchy!

JSH 01-30-2018 12:55 AM

"Having bypassed investment in a cumbersome manufacturing infrastructure, once engineering and tooling is complete, we believe we will be positioned to begin assembling vehicles as early as April 2019."

Nice double speak there. :rolleyes:

Elio all over again. You cannot build a low-volume car with ABS, airbags, HVAC, and windows (powered or crank) and sell it at a profit for $10,000.

Angel And The Wolf 01-30-2018 02:39 AM

I've read "15 degrees." I'd go for the Elio, but it needs a rear door for us senior citizens.

Angel And The Wolf 01-30-2018 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant-53 (Post 554704)
A taper angle of 22 degrees in a boat tail is recommended. From "Aerodynamics of Road Vehicles" 5th Ed. pg 312

I've read "15 degrees." I'd go for the Elio, but it needs a rear door for us senior citizens

Angel And The Wolf 01-30-2018 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant-53 (Post 554704)
A taper angle of 22 degrees in a boat tail is recommended. From "Aerodynamics of Road Vehicles" 5th Ed. pg 312

Was the 5th edition written when the National Speed Limit was 55 MPH? Another 20 MPH should mean a more gradual taper.

mattrod 01-30-2018 03:51 AM

One of the best looking 3-seater trikes I've seen though a bit pricey.

Xist 01-30-2018 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattrod (Post 560109)
One of the best looking 3-seater trikes I've seen though a bit pricey.

Thousands cheaper than any other new enclosed vehicle and it is electric?

I do not see how he could possibly make it happen for that price. As JSH wrote, you cannot sell low production volumes that cheaply for that many features for a profit.

rmay635703 01-30-2018 10:11 AM

China can sell at that price, Iím still surprised how few Chinese motorbike contraptions end up over here

samwichse 01-30-2018 10:17 AM

"...a starting range of 75-100 miles per charge using a 33-kWh battery,"
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2...ing-for-10000/

How is this car weighs a theoretical 1800lbs, has a smaller frontal area and a tapered body plan and lower rolling resistance, yet gets less rated range than a Nissan Leaf with a smaller battery is beyond me. The roof profile almost matches a first-gen Honda Insight.

30 kwh 2017 Nissan Leaf: 107 Mi EPA range
69.7" W x 61.0" H
cd 0.28
3386 lbs

JSH 01-30-2018 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmay635703 (Post 560127)
China can sell at that price, Iím still surprised how few Chinese motorbike contraptions end up over here

In China- yes. In the USA meeting NHTSA and DOT regulations - no

rmay635703 01-30-2018 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSH (Post 560143)
In China- yes. In the USA meeting NHTSA and DOT regulations - no

Motorcycles just need dot lighting, meeting that isnít very hard

JSH 01-30-2018 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmay635703 (Post 560148)
Motorcycles just need dot lighting, meeting that isn’t very hard

This is more than a motorcycle:

Airbags will need to meet US standards
HVAC will need to be filled with US legal refrigerant and meet US standards
The power windows will need automatic reverse
The glass will need to meet US standards.
Seatbelts will need to meet US standards.


Then you have shipping. This is closer in size to a car than a motorcycle and they would be lucky to get 10 in a container. Then you have truck shipping within the USA

You have to be licensed, bonded, and insured in the USA. You need a US sales force. You need to register VIN numbers. You need to offer financing and be able to buy down APRs to match the competition. You have to have a dealership network (that takes a percentage of the sale price) or some other way to handle distribution, vehicle prep, recalls and warranty claims.

All of this adds up to more than $10K. I was a product manager responsible for a UTV manufactured in India and sold the USA. The little stuff adds up.

Xist 01-30-2018 02:51 PM

Then if you managed to sell the Chinese-made trike here, someone would rear-end a German-brand bicycle, and go viral.

Angel And The Wolf 01-31-2018 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samwichse (Post 560130)
"...a starting range of 75-100 miles per charge using a 33-kWh battery,"
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2...ing-for-10000/

How is this car weighs a theoretical 1800lbs, has a smaller frontal area and a tapered body plan and lower rolling resistance, yet gets less rated range than a Nissan Leaf with a smaller battery is beyond me. The roof profile almost matches a first-gen Honda Insight.

30 kwh 2017 Nissan Leaf: 107 Mi EPA range
69.7" W x 61.0" H
cd 0.28
3386 lbs

Could be the taper is too abrupt. If the surface boundary of air detaches from the surface, it produces turbulence, and drag. Stretch the car, and the MPG should increase.

Grant-53 02-01-2018 10:26 PM

"Aerodynamics of Road Vehicles" 5th Ed. copyright is 2016. The graph is cited from an article by W. A. Mair in 1978. The transition to the taper cannot be abrupt as in the "ice cream cone" profile. The article points out that many cars use a 10 degree taper to good effect as in the tests done using the Mercedes Benz C111. So yes, an exponential curve is better than lopping off at a given angle.

Hersbird 02-01-2018 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSH (Post 560153)
This is more than a motorcycle:

Airbags will need to meet US standards
HVAC will need to be filled with US legal refrigerant and meet US standards
The power windows will need automatic reverse
The glass will need to meet US standards.
Seatbelts will need to meet US standards.


Then you have shipping. This is closer in size to a car than a motorcycle and they would be lucky to get 10 in a container. Then you have truck shipping within the USA

You have to be licensed, bonded, and insured in the USA. You need a US sales force. You need to register VIN numbers. You need to offer financing and be able to buy down APRs to match the competition. You have to have a dealership network (that takes a percentage of the sale price) or some other way to handle distribution, vehicle prep, recalls and warranty claims.

All of this adds up to more than $10K. I was a product manager responsible for a UTV manufactured in India and sold the USA. The little stuff adds up.

This would actually be easier than a UTV, 3 wheels means motorcycle in the US. I don't think that will stand once somebody actually does some real production and gets a ton on the road but in the meantime they just need motorcycle safety and emissions which are easy in comparison. Still $10,000 isn't going to happen but this company does make an e-bike less than I could put one together myself using the least expensive parts available so who knows. $10,000 also shurely doesn't cover things like shipping, it doesn't for any car's or motorcycle's MSRP.

JSH 02-02-2018 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hersbird (Post 560370)
This would actually be easier than a UTV, 3 wheels means motorcycle in the US. I don't think that will stand once somebody actually does some real production and gets a ton on the road but in the meantime they just need motorcycle safety and emissions which are easy in comparison. Still $10,000 isn't going to happen but this company does make an e-bike less than I could put one together myself using the least expensive parts available so who knows. $10,000 also shurely doesn't cover things like shipping, it doesn't for any car's or motorcycle's MSRP.

Any company that puts an airbag in a vehicle that doesn't meet US standards is in for a world of hurt the first time someone is in a crash and gets injured.

Hersbird 02-02-2018 11:39 AM

So don't put an airbag in it.

JSH 02-02-2018 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hersbird (Post 560409)
So don't put an airbag in it.

That would be one solution - if they hadn’t already promised the vehicle would be equipped with airbags.

That is the problem with all these scammer trike companies. They promise all the features of a car for the price of a motorcycle. That should be a red flag to anyone. Any large investor takes one look at the business plan and walks away. So they crowdsource and bilke small investors and dreamers instead.

Hersbird 02-02-2018 04:04 PM

Maybe the airbag is in the suspension. Maybe it's an option. I agree though and was trumpeting this on the Elio thread endlessly. Just market it as a safer motorcycle. I say use handlebars like the Arcimoto as well. Arcimoto has it figured out, all they need is a sleek plastic body. They aren't that much over $10,000. Certainly with more scale they could be under $10,000.

Angel And The Wolf 02-02-2018 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant-53 (Post 560364)
"Aerodynamics of Road Vehicles" 5th Ed. copyright is 2016. The graph is cited from an article by W. A. Mair in 1978.

Yes, in 1978 the National Maximum Speed Limit was 55 mph. At 55, air can follow a more abrupt angle than at 75. I'm going with the 15 degree quote, rather than the 22 degrees that was OK in 1978.

rmay635703 05-12-2020 02:01 PM

This project continues to limp along

The $9999 car is now $20000

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cro...artengine/amp/

Xist 05-12-2020 02:38 PM

Based on all of my Internet training I will now blame you for this bad news.

rmay635703 05-12-2020 02:51 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xist (Post 623966)
Based on all of my Internet training I will now blame you for this bad news.

Gerb


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