Swapping a TDI engine into a 1st gen Insight
 

I've decided to swap a 1.9 liter VW TDI engine into a Honda Insight.

This project is just getting started since I only have the donor vehicle right now (98 Beetle TDI).

To my knowledge, the TDI swap has only been attempted once before and it was with a 1.2 liter Lupo engine that can't easily be found where I live (America). I'll be using the venerable "ALH" engine which is found in the US Spec Golf, Jetta, and New Beetle from the 98-03 time frame.

I'm currently looking for a 1st gen Insight with a bad battery/IMA/engine that can be used for this swap.

I've started a blog to update as the project moves along. Keep in mind this won't be a quick swap. I'm pretty busy but also pretty anal so progress will be slow. I'll post here with updates as they occur!

In the meantime, feel free to check out my blog:

www.hondatdi.com

Thanks!

The purpose of the 1.2 TDI was to "fit" more easily in the car and of coarse fit within the normal weight limits.

You can order stuff from overseas moderately easy these days, you just have to have bank $5k-$12k to make it happen.

I think that if you have a donor vehicle that is running properly and you are familiar with tools and DIY attitude you don't have to spend lots of money to make it happen. Of course I've removed buying Insight from the equation ;-) I'm talking of labor and parts. I was swapping many engines in my life, mostly in VAG cars, that's not so complicated as it looks like. And the most important thing is to have a whole donor car, because it has most of the parts that you have to use to finish your project. Of course you have to fabricate few things on your own, but anyway I like the idea and I'll keep my fingers crossed for TDInsight :)

I look forward to this build.

A TDI would fit easier into a CRX. In my state such a swap in to a 1996 or newer car would not pass the OBD II emissions test, thus could no be licensed.

Right, and it was a good idea. I decided to do this swap because the ALH is much cheaper than $5-12k and can readily be found in junkyards across the nation. I picked up a 98 Beetle TDI I've been daily driving for $2k on Craigslist :)

Yep, I have a complete running vehicle I've driven for about 1000 miles now. I've been calling it the Honda TDI (www.hondatdi.com)

I'm an engineer with one of my best friends helping me do the fabrication. I am confident we can make it work... it may just take awhile since we're both really busy.

Thanks for the support!

Thanks! Me too ;)

Yes our original goal was to put the engine into an EG Civic hatchback. But then I decided to just go for it and go to the lighter weight, more aerodynamic Insight. There are ways around the emissions testing in just about every state. In my state (Arizona) I can register the car as a "modified" vehicle, put collectors insurance on it, and then it's exempt from emissions. I have my Lotus Exige registered this way because the OBDII readers at the emissions place can't talk to my European ECU :rolleyes:

I'm obviously not condoning skipping out on emissions regulations (especially on a forum like this!!) but there are times when they simply don't make sense. I plan to have all emissions equipment functioning as intended on the Honda TDI. We plan to have the OBD II working so we can use a VAG-com on the car as well...

Ever wonder how fast a 98 Beetle TDI is bone stock?

Turns out it's not as fast as it feels... watch the video on my site below for some numbers.

» Beetle Performance Testing The Honda TDI Project

:turtle:

Wow, I would not have expected it to be THAT slow! What is the weight difference between the Insight and beetle? I expect not much?

According to both manufacturers... the Beetle is exactly 900 pounds heavier than the Insight :eek:

w0w.

Lets hope the brunt of that isn't the drivetrain!

Subscribed.

A quick search shows the following:

Insight engine weight = ~128 lbs
Insight transmission = ~50 lbs
Insight hybrid system = ~95 lbs

Total drive train = 273 lbs

Beetle engine weight = ~360 lbs
Beetle transmission = ~80 lbs

Total drive train = 440 lbs

Delta = 167 lbs... or around 9% of the entire vehicle weight.

I'll be moving the battery to the rear hatch to help with weight distribution. Unfortunately I'm going to have to use a battery with a higher capacity to start the high compression diesel so that will add more weight...

I'm guessing the car will be ~200-250 lbs heavier than a stock Insight with the additional bracing and other mods necessary to pull this off.

P.S. Beetlejuice is broken. It developed a loud clunk and a bad shudder engaging 1st gear... I suspect the dual mass flywheel has given up the ghost due to me beating on it.

Garages and frickin' laser beams!

Click to view my latest post below :)

www.hondatdi.com

Starting to get geeky now...

Sometimes the emissions regulations seem too dumb to be true. EPA witch-hunting against Diesels is one of those pointless aspects of the current "environmental" laws.
workaround ideas to discuss among friends: Arguments against EPA witch-hunting regarding Diesels without mandatory emissions equipment

So, I'm debating using a Civic hatchback (EG) instead of an Insight for this project. I can't find a reasonably priced Insight around here (people want insane money for these right now).

Pros for the Civic:

- Easier swap
- Can carry 4-5 people if needed
- Has more room to carry junk
- Parts more readily available

Cons for the Civic:

- Heavier
- Less aerodynamic
- Not as interesting

Should I keep holding out for an Insight or just buy one of the dozens of Civic hatchbacks on Craigslist?

Looking for salvage title vehicles?

I was trying to avoid it but I may pick up one depending on why it was salvaged. Flood or theft history would be fine, crash damage will probably not be fine.

How about a TDI into a 2nd gen CRX swap? Lots of CRX shells for sale on CL.

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/search...inAsk=&maxAsk=

A diesel CRX would be fun.

Otherwise, hold out for an Insight. Tony (especially!) and I have proven they're available out there for cheap if you're willing to hunt (and be patient).

You could hold out for a cheap once in a lifetime deal on an insight, by that time you could be driving a diesel CRX around. I don't know about AZ, but Illinois emission tests OBD2 cars. The CRX HF is close in weigh to the insight, 100 lbs difference. With the TDI installed, it may weigh less, d15b6 engine weighs 195 lbs.

No offense but if he wants to avoid the emissions 100% (completely exempt) there are still thousands of downright antique lightweight car shells around that are probably possible to buy for a song, from yugos, Subaru 360's (900lbs), really any Honda made prior to 1986, 2cv's, Toyotas/Mazdas/Datsuns prior to 1980, Chevy Chevettes, Lincoln Linx and clones, Fiestas prior to 89, Various Chevy Sprints, Metros, Suzikis, etc ,etc not all are very aero but all are quite light. Subaru 360 shells can literally be had under $1k and they are the lightest, mod drivetrain and rearend and they would likely beat anything on the road.

In Europe current thinking and study is beyond this point.
Diesels are bad to everyone's health - regardless of their MPG achievements.
And speaking of MPG achievements : in real world use, diesels lag far more behind their official ratings than petrol cars.

Current emission standards are causing the "cure" (particulate filters) for the fine diesel particulates to be worse than the problem itself - replacing fine dust with even finer and more harmful but uncontrolled dust particles.

Don't import another problem to cure the US's addiction to fuel ...

Sounds like a fun project !

Just promise you won't mess up a good repairable Insight ;)
These cars are few and far between.
I found 1 - yes, one - on a pan-european car sales site !

About the only options are cars brought over by military personel stationed in Europe - and they didn't bring over Lupo/A2 TDis ;)

Interesting project.

Just to clarify...is your intention to keep the Insight's hybrid fuctionality? Sounds like you're not. So I assume the appeal of the Insight is aerodynamics and relatively light vehicle weight. Is that correct?

Quality standards for the Diesel fuel also influence this issue.

Yes, the appeal is the lightweight chassis and the increased power of the TDI engine. There will be no hybrid functionality when I'm done with it.

I decided to hold out and wait for the right car :) Thanks to everyone for PMing me leads to Insights for sale!

I found the right car and have been daily driving it/performance testing it :D

The Honda TDI Project

I have all the data I want from the stock Insight now. Disassembly begins tomorrow!

Maybe I'm missing something, but you said on your website that the Insight was returning 60something MPG as it stands now, with no hypermiling.
Why destroy it to put in a diesel engine? Is it really going to be that much more efficient? With driving style alone you could put a manual-trans Insight into the 70MPG range without much difficulty. Is the hassle of installing a TDI engine really going to return that much more impressive MPG?

Because this is an ecomodder and not ecostock forum? :D

Just kidding... mpg isn't the only metric by which I measure a car. I'm a speed demon so 0-60 in 14.4 seconds isn't going to cut it for me. Having a fast car that gets 60+ mpg is kind of the best of all worlds, no?

My Insight also has a salvage title and the previous owner has a want/need for the entire drive train. The battery pack/engine/transmission will live in another Insight that needs them right now.

Moving from 60 MPG to 70 MPG doesn't save that much fuel

60 MPG = 1.666666(repeating) G/100M
70 MPG = 1.428571(repeating) G/100M
That saves 0.238095(repeating) gallons per 100 miles

That is the same savings as moving from 20 MPG to 21 MPG
20 MPG = 5 G/100M
21 MPG = 4.761904(repeating) G/100M
Difference of 0.238095(repeating)

It will be quick and efficient, but, the ALH lump probably weighs a good bit more than the original engine, so it just might handle like crap.

Good to hear you are utilizing the original driveline as it would be a shame to chop up a functioning insight, just for this project.

Yeah, the VW components weigh almost 400 lbs more than the Honda ones they are replacing. It'll likely never handle as well as a stock Insight no matter how much I re-engineer the suspension geometry and mess around with adjusting it.

If I want handling... I can go to my other lightweight car that wears my screen name as it's license plate :thumbup:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-e...ffee_Dec11.jpg

Even with a weight balance not so favorable as it would be with a 3-cyl, a Diesel into an aerodynamic and light body is always at least interesting to see :thumbup:

The Insight's aerodynamics are a significant improvement over the Beetle's and will help a lot, especially when in go-fast mode.

Why not challenge yourself and install the TDI into the rear end of the car? ;)

You're right, why bother trying to hypermile at all, right?
:p

EDIT: It just doesn't add up to enough savings to justify it...?

I would think, even if you were to put the TDI into the insight, its still interesting. Also just with the drag decrease from the beetle>insight change, you could possibly have a mpg increase larger than just 10mpg, weather its really Worth the effort or not... Its all in good fun.

Or better yet, TDI>Lotus with gear mods and possibly get 40+mpg while retaining Sport functionality(Im pretty sure i have seen this lotus on another forum before when i looked up Rear diffussers for inspiration)

Or turn the beetle into a sleeper street car, and do some aeromods

I'll second that. A mid-engined RWD Insight with the TDI could be a nice sleeper :D

The figure for the national average for regular gas that I found says it is $3.642.

A difference of 0.23805(repeating) gallons/100M means if you drive x miles, you have a fuel savings of:
5000 miles a year: 11.90261(repeating) gallons, saving $43.35 a year
10000 miles a year: 23.80523(repeating) gallons, saving $86.70 a year
15000 miles a year: 35.70785(repeating) gallons, saving $130.05 a year

The point of my math lesson was that not all MPGs are equal. It is a measurement of distance travelled over a set volume of fuel. A linear measurement of fuel consumption is gallons per 100 miles, a measurement of fuel used over a set distance.

I have taken my Mustang from 20.5 MPG (4.8780(repeating) G/100M) to 23.5 MPG (4.2553 G/100M) (In my most recent tanks after removing the CAI). My 3 MPG savings, (about 0.6227 G/100M) is actually 2.6 times more of a fuel savings of someone gaining 10 MPG from 60 to 70. I drive it about 6000 miles a year, so I am going to save $136.07 if I can keep that average up for a year. Since I'm getting over 23 MPG in winter, I feel like I can do it. Maybe hit 25 MPG (4.0 G/100M) this summer.

Why am I obsessed with G/100M? I thought about trading in my Mustang for a new Dart Aero (1.4L Turbo) , and my monthly payments (vs what I still owe on the Mustang) would increase a greater amount that I would save in fuel. I don't try to hypermile to save the world, just my wallet.

After I own the Mustang free and clear, that'll be a different story...