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Ecky 08-15-2022 07:31 PM

Thoughts about my move to New Zealand
 
Some thoughts, in no particular order:

- People in Wellington tell me I'm crazy for buying a convertible here. This has been the wettest winter on record (I think). It seems to be raining around one day in three, is cloudy one day in three, and is sunny one day in three. Temperature during the day is between 12c (54f) and 16c (61f). The locals find anything under 10c to be bitterly and disgustingly cold. I'm not certain I've ever been in a more pleasant climate, even counting San Diego, because I like a bit of variety and greenery. Summer is supposed to be around 20c (68f) plus or minus two degrees, and sunny ~70% of the time.

- When I arrived, I immediately bought a car because I do not know any other way to get around. I chose to live with roommates despite being able to afford a place of my own (even to buy), to help socialize and educate me. I'm living with three 30's working professionals, none of whom own a car, despite being plenty able to afford one. Buses arrive in the outer suburbs every 5 minutes like clockwork.

- Initially I considered buying a trailer to move larger items, such as furniture, to save on delivery costs. However, I realized that virtually every petrol station has trailers for rent, and rental prices are extremely inexpensive. Perhaps half of vehicles I see on the road have a hitch, even subcompacts with 1L engines.

- The roads are extremely narrow - at times, traffic on either side takes turns, and my MX-5 barely fits between the lines in places.

- Speed limits are treated differently here. Rural roads have limits you couldn't possibly expect to hit unless you have a death wish. Motorways are typically 100kph (62mph), or sometimes 80kph (50mph). The culture here seems to be to drive 5 under, rather than 5 over, and it's exceedingly rare to see anyone driving above the limit, even when it's perfectly flat and straight. Non-motorways are typically 50 (31), and once you get into any area where foot traffic is common, it's 30 (18).

- Drivers here are very good. Traffic patterns seem much more conscientious. When two lanes merge, people automatically space out and come together every other car. When lanes are narrow or there is a delivery vehicle in the street, drivers don't think twice about sharing lanes with oncoming traffic. When one side is blocked by someone trying to turn, the other side will usually have a driver that sees this, stops their traffic briefly, and lets the signaling driver turn. I have yet to see road rage, though I'm sure it exists. When someone makes a poor choice, it *appears* they're forgiven. The roads feel more chaotic, but at the same time less dangerous.

- Everything is a roundabout.

- Because healthcare is universal, car insurance is both optional and absurdly cheap, often as little as $6 per month. Private insurance and healthcare is available for anyone who wants it.

- I pay a little less than half the tax rate on my first dollar compared with the US, but seem to get more in return.

- I'm starting off my job at 6 weeks paid time off per year and it only grows from there. I'm expected to use it. I'm salaried, but work seems to be 40 hours minus, rather than 40 plus. If I finish early, I go home.

- What surprises me most of all is what I've observed about children. Maybe in more rural areas this isn't true, but I have yet to see a school bus here. Instead, children walk or use normal transit like adults, and as a result, they have the same mobility and access to the community as adults. I see kids walking to the community pool, or in a bakery, or visiting a park, all unsupervised. Or at least, without their parents. The community seems to keep a loose eye on them. I expect because of this, kids grow up being accustomed to using communal services, and don't grow out of it. There's a lot more of a sense of community, and a lot more trust.

- Communities seem to be built around a small business core that is to be accessed on foot. Private ownership of many things just doesn't make sense, when it's a 5 minute walk away (e.g. trailer, swimming pool). Refrigerators are small, because you walk past a grocery store every day, and it's 5 minutes to get in and out with what you're going to make for dinner.

- Eating out is less expensive. Menu prices look higher, but prices always include tax, and there is no tipping.

- On the topic of prices, utilities are less. Car insurance is less (or not required). Medical is "free". Taxes are lower. Food is similar, aside from things that are out of season which can be wildly expensive. Regular consumer goods are often a little higher, and with far lower selection - e.g. stuff like socks, bed sheets and toothbrushes. Cars are much less expensive. Items like computers and computer parts are similar. Chemicals such as paint, solvents, etc. are far more expensive. Tools are more expensive and the selection is poor. Rent in the capital city is similar to a middle-cost US state - not far off from, say, Michigan, and less than Vermont. Buying in the capital city is US west coast expensive - think Portland or Seattle and its suburbs.

- There is so incredibly much access to nature, and it's rare that people don't access it on a regular basis. Over the weekend I walked around 30km. Private land generally isn't off limits, and several times I stopped to play with someone's lambs or kids (goats) while walking to check out a lighthouse or some other cool feature.

Attached is a short video of driving from my community to the beach. These are pretty typical roads.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CcL6u65yb4

oil pan 4 08-15-2022 09:33 PM

I hear the volcano messed with the weather in the south.

Piotrsko 08-16-2022 09:38 AM

Many places in the world are like that: diametrically opposed to US of A experiences that praise status.

jakobnev 08-16-2022 10:20 AM

Just don't join any cults.

Ecky 08-16-2022 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakobnev (Post 673054)
Just don't join any cults.

I was invited to an effective altruism club. :rolleyes:

Does that count?

- Being vegetarian seems about 3x more common here.

- An expression I've heard is, "I'm not a lawyer or a farmer" to describe that someone isn't wealthy. Apparently back in the 80's the government decided to do away with all subsidies and handholding, and make agriculture entirely free market. Along with some clever marketing, it has resulted in agriculture becoming wildly lucrative, and the individual farmer with a few acres is alive and well.

-On that topic, the government also went on a massive diet, and cut out a lot of the unnecessary bureaucratic bloat. Despite more services being socialized, it's arguably a much smaller government system. Government spending per Capita is notably lower.

- The indigenous population don't seem to have been as severely taken advantage of as in the US, and still make up a sizable portion of the population, though I see some similar dialectic to what's going on with African Americans. From my brief observations, the Maori are more represented in the bottom income brackets, and you see similar patterns of representation in health, higher education education, crime, and other social issues. Interestingly, many place names are returning to their pre-colonial ones, and a large majority of people are voluntarily learning at least some Te Reo Maori. New Zealand may even change its name. There's a conscious and widespread effort to rewrite the social narrative and hold indigenous views on equal level with colonial ones. At the same time, there's still racial discrimination that can be observed, and is perhaps more obvious to an outsider.

- The household I'm staying in seems to produce around 1/8 the waste of my sister's, despite there being twice as many adults living here.

- Single use plastic is all but banned. My rubbish bags are compostable and made from plants. No bags are offered when checking out while shopping. Many items (such as spices) are sold in fully compostable packaging, if not in bulk.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 08-18-2022 01:54 AM

Some things you mention sound quite similar to what I see in Brazil, while others seem totally different from what I'm used to.

Piwoslaw 08-20-2022 03:38 PM

Huge THANK YOU for this!!
The wife and I have been looking for a place to flee from the direction our gov't is dragging us, and NZ is about as far away as the globe will allow.

Based on what you wrote, we are in love, though we are aware that no place is ideal. And you too will notice the darker sides of living there, whatever they may be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecky (Post 673014)
- When I arrived, I immediately bought a car because I do not know any other way to get around. I chose to live with roommates despite being able to afford a place of my own (even to buy), to help socialize and educate me. I'm living with three 30's working professionals, none of whom own a car, despite being plenty able to afford one. Buses arrive in the outer suburbs every 5 minutes like clockwork.

This reminded me of a joke I once heard:
The son of a rich sheikh went abroad to study. After a month or 2, he texts his father that all is good. The father asks whether the gold-plated limo is adequate for driving to school?
The son replied that yes, it's great, but all of his professors ride the bus.
Dad's reply: No problem son, next month I'll send you a gold-plated bus.

freebeard 08-20-2022 03:55 PM

Quote:

Huge THANK YOU for this!!
The wife and I have been looking for a place to flee from the direction our gov't is dragging us, and NZ is about as far away as the globe will allow.
That's interesting. The perspective from here, Northwest of normal, is that Eastern Europe (Poland plus three others?) is an island of sanity, while NZ is following Australia down some yawning abyss.

Shows what I know?

Ecky 08-20-2022 04:22 PM

Some of the darker side that I've seen:

- New Zealand seems to have a certain branding, of being pure and clean and unspoiled. This is partly true, but also partly not. It's stunningly gorgeous here. However, even as large as it is, the native ecosystem is shockingly fragile, and most of the country is overrun with invasive species. I'm of the opinion that people here put forth more effort to maintain and restore native flora and fauna than most (if not any) other place on earth, but it remains that there are invasive mammals that have decimated the native bird population, and it's a constant battle to keep them in check enough to prevent their complete extinction. On the other hand, the fragile native ecosystem DOES still exist, and it's coming back, because people value it. Most continental areas either just seem to accept invasive species as the "new normal", or the ecosystem is not so fragile as for it to be an issue.

- In some areas, there is gang activity. I'm not super informed on what the gangs are about or why they exist, and the overall crime rate is still a fraction of what it was in the US overall, but the existence of gang activity has surprised me.

- The south island supposedly has major issues with downstream river algae blooms, from agricultural nitrate runoff.

- The weather may be mild and not have any large swings, but it's closer to the adage "if you don't like the weather, wait 5 minutes" than anywhere I've lived. Most days the forecasts show rain. Most days it does rain, if only briefly: a storm will blow in from the ocean, it'll drop rain for 5 minutes, then the storm blows back out to sea, and the sun comes out. In Wellington in particular, it's hard to plan an outdoor activity more than a day or two in advance, and even then nothing is guaranteed. I keep a rain coat in my car.

- It's fairly humid on the north island. The dew point is low, but so is the temperature. It isn't muggy, per se, and any heated building will feel fairly dry and comfortable inside. Heating and cooling is largely unnecessary, but a dehumidifier is a nice addition to any home.

- Most homes here, for whatever reason, simply haven't been built to be air tight and don't hold heat very well. Single glaze is still most common, and often windows have gaps that wind blows right through. Most heating is still resistive, with heat pumps being a relatively new technology. I came from summer in the US, and until I added weather stripping and plastic sheeting over my windows, I was actually a bit chilly unless I was running an inefficient heater all of the time. The flip side to the "breathability" of homes here is that, although I have indoor allergies, I haven't had any since moving.

- Because it never gets very hot or cold here, and the landscape is so rugged, with houses set down in valleys to get shelter from the wind, many places don't fully dry out in winter for days or weeks at a time. I'm tempted to get a pressure washer to clean the lichens from the stonework outside.

- There seems to be much more of a culture of "making do" than I'm accustomed to. I respect it, but it's a surprise coming from the US, where most anything worn or damaged is simply replaced. It doesn't even seem to be about the money, typically.

freebeard 08-20-2022 05:55 PM

Don't take me wrong, there's nowhere that isn't under some kind of stress. It's all human-made of course.

Quote:

In some areas, there is gang activity.
The World's Fastest Indian made the mororcycle gangs appear good-hearted behind the posturing.

rmay635703 08-20-2022 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecky (Post 673336)
Some of the darker side that I've seen:
- There seems to be much more of a culture of "making do" than I'm accustomed to. I respect it, but it's a surprise coming from the US, where most anything worn or damaged is simply replaced. It doesn't even seem to be about the money, typically.

My grandparents were depression era kids and my mom was brought up by German farmers.

The US is loosing the idea of using everything until it’s completely non-repairable but in some areas there are still people who never replace anything.

My mom reuses bags and has never bought an empty plastic container has her fruit jars.

We had our 82 diesel suburban 438,000 miles, my folks lived in the same home their entire lives and grew most of the food I ate as a kid due to extreme poverty from my fathers broken back

I’ve always been someone who avoids buying things to toss and uses things until they are fully destroyed

We still exist and if any real hardship came I doubt most in this country would survive.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 08-22-2022 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmay635703 (Post 673343)
The US is loosing the idea of using everything until it’s completely non-repairable but in some areas there are still people who never replace anything.

Some newer items such as home appliances seem to be made non-repairable by default, while older ones even when seemingly cheap enough to just dispose of were more repairable to different extents, from a professional repair to just a makeshift repair done at home.


Quote:

my folks lived in the same home their entire lives and grew most of the food I ate as a kid due to extreme poverty from my fathers broken back
Living in an apartment it's harder for me to try growing some crops and raising livestock, but I'd be willing to try if I lived in a house instead. My grandfather had an indigenous background, so he enjoyed growing some crops not only for food but also as a hobby, and I remember eating peanuts grown by him.

Ecky 11-24-2023 04:07 PM

Reviving this thread for a year-and-a-half perspective on my move, and per JSH's request.

Ecky 11-24-2023 05:00 PM

A year and a half in, I have no desire to move back to the US. The more time I spend overseas, the more I feel I'm getting a far better deal here. If I could sum it up, it would be that I feel like I'm on vacation basically every day, even those days I'm at work.

JSH asked how you move to New Zealand. My impression is that New Zealand, similar to many other Western countries, has an immigration system that discriminates in favor of educated, young, English-speaking immigrants - which is not to say there aren't other ways in.

My general path here was (from the visa perspective): Visitor -> Worker -> Resident (where I am now) -> Permanent resident -> Citizen

You can see a list of New Zealand visas here: https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas

A few paths I'm aware of include:
Working holiday - if you're 30 or under, you can get an open work visa and come for two years, during which you can look for more permanent work.
Job offer - if you're offered a job from an accredited employer, making above NZ28 (~$17US)
Green list job offer - Green listed jobs take you straight to residency.
Student - after studying, you have the opportunity to work here.
Entrepreneur - start a business and be self-employed here for at least 6 months.
Investor - bring ~10 million US and invest it into the economy, or ~600,00 if you have a child who is a resident here.
Have family here - and have them sponsor you.

Overall, it looks like it isn't the easiest place to simply buy into and retire. For someone elderly, their best chance is to be sponsored by someone locally. On the other hand, I understand it's far easier to get into NZ at any level than it is to get into the US. A dentist might, for example, wait 10+ years to be allowed the opportunity to take a job offer in the US.

freebeard 11-24-2023 05:14 PM

Said dentist would be trampled by the elephant in the room.

Ecky 11-24-2023 06:10 PM

Some fun country-comparison statistics, all in US dollars:

Big Mac Index - the USA is #7 at $5.58. New Zealand is #14 at $5.04. (indicates cost of living)

GDP per capita - The USA is #7 at ~$70,000. NZ is #22 at ~$48,000.

Average individual income - USA $65,400 , NZ $61,000usd

Median individual income - USA $31,000, NZ $38,500

Average individual wealth - USA $551,000, NZ $389,000

Median individual wealth - USA $107,000, NZ $193,000

Average Paid Vacation days - USA 11, NZ legal minimum 20 (can't find average but it's higher)

Average Sick Days - USA 8, NZ legal minimum 10

Public Holidays - USA 6, NZ 11 (legally required)

Ease of doing business index - USA #6, NZ #1 - New Zealand has 3x as many (per capita) business owners.

Corruption Index (perceived) - USA #24, NZ #2 (down from #1)

Life Expectancy - USA 77.28 years, NZ 82.06 years

Crime Rate Index - USA 47.71, NZ 42.88 (lower is better)

Average individual healthcare expenditure - USA $12,900, NZ ~$1,250

Average commute distance - USA 41 miles, NZ 14 miles

Average car insurance cost - USA $2150 PA, NZ $480 (optional)

Average fuel cost per gallon - USA $3.50 gas $4.25 diesel, NZ $5.40 gas $4.50 diesel

Average electricity cost - USA 23c/kwh, NZ 18.5c/kwh

Average food cost per month - USA $415.50, NZ $181.25

Average used car cost - USA $28,100, NZ $7,875

Current unemployment rate - USA 3.9%, NZ 3.6%

Percent immigrants - USA 13.6, NZ >23%

Overall workforce participation rate - USA 62.7%, NZ 71.8%

Child Poverty Rate - USA 16%, NZ 12% (but calculated differently)
-Note, all parents get a stipend, and all dental care up to age 18 is covered under the national system

Maternity Leave - USA 0 required, NZ 26 weeks paid either parent (or split)

~

Income tax rate:

USA federal tax brackets including SS and medicare:
17.65% up to 11k
19.65% up to 44k
29.65% up to 95k
31.65% up to 180k
39.65% up to 231k
42.65% up to 578k
44.65% 578k+

Including Oregon (as an example) state income tax, in a simplified form (the brackets don't line up with federal):

24.4% up to 11k (effective rate is less)
28.4% up to 44k
38.4% up to 95k
41.55% up to 180k
49.55% up to 231k
52.55% up to 578k
54.55% 578k+


NZ tax brackets:
10.5% up to ~$10k USD
17.5% up to ~33.5k USD
30% up to ~49k USD
33% up to ~115k USD
39% over ~115k USD

EDIT: Now, I'm aware that very few Americans actually pay taxes in the amounts prescribed by their brackets, but the effective tax burden is still higher.

freebeard 11-24-2023 11:03 PM

Quote:

Corruption Index (perceived) - USA #24, NZ #2 (down from #1)
Is dropping to #2 good or bad? :confused:

Ecky 11-24-2023 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 689639)
Is dropping to #2 good or bad? :confused:

It appears Denmark improved, rather than New Zealand regressing.

These aren't cherry-picked stats though, so they're not intended to just show this place in a better light.

freebeard 11-25-2023 12:15 AM

So second least corrupt. That's good.

Quote:

Average electricity cost - USA 23c/kwh, NZ 18.5c/kwh
I just checked, I pay 6.04 cents per kilowatt-hour. But my thousand dollar beater needs a thousand dollars of work.

redpoint5 11-25-2023 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 689642)
I just checked, I pay 6.04 cents per kilowatt-hour. But my thousand dollar beater needs a thousand dollars of work.

Average in the US is $0.16/kWh, so that fact is wrong. I accept most of the others though, unless someone wants to bring evidence to make me doubt it.

Ecky 11-25-2023 02:42 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 689645)
Average in the US is $0.16/kWh, so that fact is wrong. I accept most of the others though, unless someone wants to bring evidence to make me doubt it.

I didn't spend a terrible amount of time scrutinizing the individual sources, so some may be off. The way they're collected may also not be apples to apples.

As an example, let's say I order an item on a menu here for "$20" NZ, and one in the US for "$10" USD. When I get to the register in NZ, I hand them a crisp 20 and there's no change. In the US, I'd leave $2 on the table and pay $10.60 for the meal. Plus you have a floating exchange rate, and there's never an exact equivalency. Between the NZ meal and the US meal, which one cost more?

The NZ tax system also does not generally measure household income, and there's no such thing as being taxed jointly - what you make is taxed solely on your own circumstances, regardless of whom you live with. Meanwhile, household is the easiest figure to find for US stuff.

I couldn't tell you if the quoted US or NZ electricity rates were the flat kwh cost, or with taxes and fees averaged in at each location that are actually paid. When I needed to do conversions in that list, I used today's exchange rate, for which a US dollar gives 5 nz cents less than it did last month, and 5 cents more than 4 months ago.

What I can say is that I pay $480nz per week (290US) for a 2 bedroom flat with parking and a panoramic harbor view in the heart of the capital city, I spend an average of $70nz per week (42.50US) on food between myself and my partner, and our utilities (2x cell, gigabit fiber, electricity, gas) run around $170nz (103US) per month. There's a low KM ND MX-5 for sale in town right now for under 20k NZ (12US) and I could pick up a running and inspectable car for less than 1500 dollars (900US).

EDIT: Hopped on Facebook Marketplace to check what I could find for under a grand US. $665usd buys you a freshly inspected 1998 Accent, $800US buys a 2002 Corolla with 200k miles, $1200 buys a Mitsubishi L200 5 speed pickup.

oil pan 4 11-25-2023 09:31 AM

The whole country is a gigantic gun free zone now.

Piotrsko 11-25-2023 10:13 AM

How about comparing prices to labor hours?

Rough napkin calcs say you are paying more or less equivalent prices and taxes there in labor hours, adjusting for currencies, only I suspect the quality would be better judging by my Spain trip last week.

When the whole country is a scenic paradise, a view house is common unlike USA

freebeard 11-25-2023 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5
Average in the US is $0.16/kWh, so that fact is wrong.

What, the fact that I had just checked? Do you just like to argue? I just opened my current bill to confirm. 532kWh at $0.0604. That's up from $0.051717/kWh.

It's half what 'big' city across the river pays. which is still less than the national average. The miracle of hydro-power.

Quote:

https://findenergy.com › or › lane-county-electricity
Lane County, OR: Electric Rates, Bills & Providers - FindEnergy
Nov 9, 2023 At an average residential rate of 11.58 cents per kilowatt hour in the county compared to the national average 15.90 cents per kilowatt hour, customers in Lane County benefit from a 27.17% discount from the national average price.
_____________________

Quote:

The whole country is a gigantic gun free zone now
Oregon just vacated Measure 114. It's like it's 1857 all over again. We can has standard-capacity magazines and everything.

redpoint5 11-25-2023 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 689655)
What, the fact that I had just checked? Do you just like to argue?

No, the fact originally presented by Ecky. I'm agreeing with your insinuation.

Also, I do just like to argue.

Piotrsko 11-25-2023 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 689658)

Also, I do just like to argue.

You're kidding, no? Haven't really noticed. NOT.

freebeard 11-25-2023 02:03 PM

I invite you to visit Permalink #20 to understand my confusion.

Ecky -- Back on topic, how is NZ on standard-capacity magazines?

Ecky 11-25-2023 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 689662)
I invite you to visit Permalink #20 to understand my confusion.

Ecky -- Back on topic, how is NZ on standard-capacity magazines?

Couldn't tell you. New Zealand gun laws are more relaxed than Australia's, and people have them, but mostly it's farmers who have them for shooting pests. Australia is the big gun-free zone.

A quick search reveals that if I wanted one, I'd need a license. They'd do a background check and make sure I have a safe storage facility, and then if I wanted a semi-automatic, it would be limited to a 10 round magazine.

However, I've seen no need for a gun. The police don't carry, for instance, and outside of West Auckland, I feel a young woman could probably walk just about anywhere at night alone and have good reason to feel safe.

There are no bears, no wolves. The country allows a very small deer population because hunters like them, but they're imported and I've never seen one. No wild predators - the worst you're likely to ever see is a goat jumping a fence to eat your vegetable garden. There's simply nothing that needs shooting.

Ecky 11-25-2023 03:28 PM

One rather surprising thing to me was a lack of standardization here. For example, I wanted to put up a wall and an interior door for a friend. I picked up the framing and drywall, but when I went hunting for the door, I found that broadly speaking, hung doors don't exist here. Someone buys a slab of wood, and a joiner will build a frame to the size, router out for the hinges, chip/cut out for the door handle you want, where you want it, plus any other locks or accessories. There's no such thing as a standard door handle size, shape, or location.

This applies broadly here, and I have no doubt it causes a loss in efficiency. There are lots of individual artisans making one-off solutions for things that could be mass produced and standardized.

freebeard 11-25-2023 04:37 PM

Quote:

There are no bears, no wolves... There's simply nothing that needs shooting.
My friends who live upriver want it to be that way. But they can wish in one hand....

Hereabouts we're teetering on the edge of a dystopia. We can hear the Cavalry's trumpets but they haven't come around the bend. A much better situation than your Oztralian neighbors. How's that new Prime Minister working out?

Ecky 11-26-2023 07:26 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotrsko (Post 689652)
How about comparing prices to labor hours?

Rough napkin calcs say you are paying more or less equivalent prices and taxes there in labor hours, adjusting for currencies, only I suspect the quality would be better judging by my Spain trip last week.

When the whole country is a scenic paradise, a view house is common unlike USA

If I understand the question correctly, prices are lower and labor (when paying for services) are higher. Presumably this is because there aren't as many overheads.

Minimum wage is $22.70NZ and many places start at $26NZ (around $16US), because it's what's classified as a "living wage" and it's good PR to offer that wage. At the current exchange rate that's a hair under $33,000US at 40hr/week. A 37.5 hour work week is common for FTE. There's also little incentive for people not to work part time, other than for more pay, because the benefits and such apply equally to someone working 1 hour per week as to someone working 40, or 60.

You're also right, in that it's hard to find a place that doesn't have a view. Mine is perhaps above average, but not exceptional. Attached is a pic of the view from a bedroom, yesterday afternoon.

Ecky 11-26-2023 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 689669)
My friends who live upriver want it to be that way. But they can wish in one hand....

Hereabouts we're teetering on the edge of a dystopia. We can hear the Cavalry's trumpets but they haven't come around the bend. A much better situation than your Oztralian neighbors. How's that new Prime Minister working out?

I liked the outgoing Labour government. I had one significant policy disagreement with the incoming National government, which was negotiated out while they were forming their coalition. Overall I feel just about equally happy with the incoming government.

The incoming National (center right) government wants to increase healthcare spending and hire more nurses and doctors, to give the middle and lower classes a very slight tax cut, and to give rebates to families who pay for child care (to get more people into the workforce), and to streamline a lot of consent processes, such as for building houses.

The policy I didn't care for was to open NZ houses above $2,000,000 to foreign buyers, and to tax foreign transactions heavily, to raise funds to pay the Covid spending down faster. My opinion was that it would cause an upward pressure on lower cost homes, and I haven't yet bought a house here. The coalition ACT and NZ First parties vetoed this policy.

As for the PM himself, he seems alright. He did a cooking show as part of his campaign, which gave a glimpse into his personal life and views outside of work.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr 11-26-2023 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecky (Post 689648)
$1200 buys a Mitsubishi L200 5 speed pickup.

4WD, crew-cab? Gas or Diesel?

Ecky 11-26-2023 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr (Post 689694)
4WD, crew-cab? Gas or Diesel?

2WD Extended cab 5spd Gas. Paint is faded on the hood, but otherwise looks good.

redpoint5 11-26-2023 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebeard (Post 689662)
I invite you to visit Permalink #20 to understand my confusion.

Again, I'm agreeing with you.

You provided evidence suggesting the US average might be less than $0.23/kWh, and I piled on with a fact from a source, misunderstanding that perhaps you weren't providing counter evidence, but accepting the fact as presented and offering an anecdote.

My confusion was the impetus for yours, which is why I'm attempting to clarify my statements and understand yours.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotrsko (Post 689661)
You're kidding, no? Haven't really noticed. NOT.

Agreeing with people isn't interesting or helpful. Most everything I don't comment on is because I either agree, or don't have enough knowledge to weigh in. Naturally, what's left is argumentation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecky (Post 689664)
There's simply nothing that needs shooting.

There was a fella named Brenton Tarrant that needed shooting, preferably well before he murdered 51 people. That's my take though; others think a mental health professional should have spoken calming words of affirmation to him.

freebeard 11-27-2023 01:17 AM

Quote:

Agreeing with people isn't interesting or helpful.
No it isn't.
..vs
No, it isn't.

Ecky 11-27-2023 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpoint5 (Post 689703)
There was a fella named Brenton Tarrant that needed shooting, preferably well before he murdered 51 people. That's my take though; others think a mental health professional should have spoken calming words of affirmation to him.

I wager it's a bit more complicated than that.

I have no doubt most of those 51 people could legally have had guns had they wanted them, and simply chose not to. It's my impression the friends and families of the victims likely still choose not to have guns.

If someone took him out before he murdered 51 people, it would have been an international incident, since he was a foreigner. By a group of armed Muslims, no less.

Additionally, you can count on your hands how many mass shootings (more than two people) this country has had since its founding. Last I checked, the US has more than 500 per year.

Also, the police were on scene within 6 minutes.

I've personally been in a mass shooting - in Florida. When the guy came into the library and started firing, in a heavily armed state, it was very clearly not in everyone's mind to shoot back. He was shot dead by the police in minutes. It did not occur to me afterward to start carrying in public. Instead, I later opted to move somewhere with less gun violence.

redpoint5 11-27-2023 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecky (Post 689707)
I wager it's a bit more complicated than that.

I have no doubt most of those 51 people could legally have had guns had they wanted them, and simply chose not to. It's my impression the friends and families of the victims likely still choose not to have guns.

If someone took him out before he murdered 51 people, it would have been an international incident, since he was a foreigner. By a group of armed Muslims, no less.

Additionally, you can count on your hands how many mass shootings (more than two people) this country has had since its founding. Last I checked, the US has more than 500 per year.

Also, the police were on scene within 6 minutes.

I've personally been in a mass shooting - in Florida. When the guy came into the library and started firing, in a heavily armed state, it was very clearly not in everyone's mind to shoot back. He was shot dead by the police in minutes. It did not occur to me afterward to start carrying in public. Instead, I later opted to move somewhere with less gun violence.

Comfort breeds impotentness. It's a blessing and a curse.

Again, NZ has a population similar to Oregon, a nothing state among 50 in the US. Claiming only a handful of mass shootings in a nothing country is unimpressive.

I have no experience with NZ, so I'll stop short of any cultural values comments. That said, most problems are the result of good people not taking responsibility (or lack of good values), not liberty run amok.

If Brenton Tarrant had been shot dead the moment he wielded weapon by a good person that was armed, I would never have known such a person existed because news wouldn't have talked about it. Those scenarios play out all the time. "news" is the failures and unlikely scenarios, not the successes.

Ecky 11-27-2023 06:11 AM

A difference in perspective. As an aside, Oregon is lately averaging as many mass shootings yearly as this country has had since its founding.

The last Thanksgiving I had in the US was in Michigan. Around the dinner table, the discussion was about the recent school shooting that made the news. One person commented "they ought to arm teachers" and there was near universal agreement - so the teachers would be ready to kill any student who becomes dangerous. While there's a certain logic to it, I think it ignores the psychology of the remaining 99.9999% of the time (or perhaps less in the US) where you have children who are aware there is an adult in the room who is, in theory, able and prepared to kill them. Nevermind that you now have more stressed adults living in preparation of violence, given weapons around children. Maybe I'm wrong, and if we put people in the position to kill more often, it would happen less often. After all, it generally only happens as a result of mental illness - something as often as not originating environmentally.

It's true that New Zealand would be relatively defenseless if an aggressive nation decided to come and steal their sheep and wind turbines. I'm aware of the position the US holds in the world order, and it's my view I'd rather the US were there than China or Russia, even if I'm not entirely happy with some of the downstream effects of the banana republics - it's easy enough to judge in hindsight. I'm well enough read in world history to know this period of "peace" is more the exception than the norm, even if US "defense" spending just prior to COVID reached levels near to the height of spending during World War II when adjusted for inflation.

All in all, I feel rather lucky I'm no longer footing the bill. Gaming the system, as you say. I have a smaller tax bill and I'm less likely to be shot.

redpoint5 11-27-2023 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecky (Post 689709)
As an aside, Oregon is lately averaging as many mass shootings yearly as this country has had since its founding.

Oregon, more than most of the other states, lacks something unifying to gather around, to take pride in, and feel a sense of purpose and belonging to. As a result, we've got a higher incidence of purposeless zombies dulling their minds with drugs, or attempting suicide, or committing suicide by mass murder. Do these hopeless folk tend to use certain types of drugs or certain types of weapons to act out their despair? Sure.

A good friend of mine called me 10 years ago, and it was 10:45 pm. I remember where I was standing when I answered, and where my wife was sitting. It was days before Christmas. I drove to his house and he described the most horrific thing I will probably ever hear. Prior to calling me, he had cut the rope his sister had used to hang herself in the basement, carried her lifeless corpse upstairs, and uselessly called 911.

This time every year, I experience brief moments of paralyzing sadness. People with every material need should not be living in despair.

We don't need to outlaw ropes; we need to figure out how to build communities and families that are full of meaning and purpose. We need to care for the mentally ill rather than give them "freedom" on the streets.

Quote:

The last Thanksgiving I had in the US was in Michigan. Around the dinner table, the discussion was about the recent school shooting that made the news. One person commented "they ought to arm teachers" and there was near universal agreement
Arming teachers isn't a smart solution, but understanding that nearly 100% of mass shootings take place in "gun free" zones is worth thinking about.

My thoughts on problems tend to focus on the origins of the problem rather than the symptoms of it. Mass shooting isn't the problem; it's the manifestation of other problems.

As absolutely horrific as mass shootings are, they still represent a statistical probability so low that one is unlikely to succumb to one, or know someone else who did. That's not to say the topic is unimportant, only that it's less important than discussing heart health, or ladder safety, or diet/exercise, or mental health, or the other things that kill the majority of people.

Quote:

I'm well enough read in world history to know this period of "peace" is more the exception than the norm, even if US "defense" spending just prior to COVID reached levels near to the height of spending during World War II when adjusted for inflation.
I'm not thrilled by the size (as measured by taxation) of the US federal government either, especially on the war department. I also don't have a great solution for securing international waters so that commerce is relatively safe if the US were to massively shrink military spending. Perhaps nations would reduce global trade and become more isolationist once shipping becomes so dangerous and unprofitable?

Recently I've just begun to wonder where I'd go if the US experiment fails and the Marxists succeed in convincing the masses that arbitrary internal tribalism is more important than voluntary cooperation. I could move to another state, but if the Marxists are successful, independent states will be illegal. Marxism in the US is currently iterated as "woke" and "critical race theory", among others. There's practically no Marxist iteration our institutions of education don't like.

I remain hopeful that people will generally exceed 9th grade wisdom and understanding as they age. Reality has a way of demanding it not be ignored indefinitely.


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