TIGON Diesel Hybrid
 

Hey Gang,

I thought I would open up a build thread for my new project so others can follow until I finish with my website!

Here is a brief rundown of the project:

The vehicle is a 3 wheeled reverse trike with a diesel electric hybrid powertrain. The hybrid design is a parallel configuration allowing the diesel engine and electric motor to run in tandem when desired. The diesel engine is a 2 cylinder V Twin .79L 19hp naturally aspirated water cooled engine. The electric motor is a Permanent Magnet Alternating Current (PMAC) design. Batteries are a Lithium Iron Supercapacitor Hybrid rated at 40ah with a 5.76kw adjustable capacity battery bank. Vehicle has regenerative braking capability and has plug in ability. The estimated battery only range is between 30-40mi on a single charge at an 80% discharge depth. Hybrid batteries can be charged to 80% max with in a 30min period of time.

The prototype vehicle is being built as an hybrid but can also be configured as either a diesel only or an EV only vehicle. The vehicle will be built in stages to demonstrate the various configuration possibilities with the platform. The goal for this vehicle is a freeway capable long range cruiser. Everything on this vehicle is being optimized for range. However I estimate the top speed to be near the 90MPH area or better depending on how the final gear ratios are adjusted. With the hybrid design the vehicle should have great acceleration and top end speed. The diesel only vehicle will not have comparable acceleration or top end speed that the hybrid will enjoy, but will still be quite capable on the freeway and can be had for far less initial cost!


I decided to take on this project some time ago because I was mainly disappointed with the fuel economy and price of current vehicle selections. I also always wanted to have a reverse trike but again disappointed with the selections available. It seemed as though most of the trikes were designed for the sport performance enthusiasts rather than the eco friendly guy like me! I wanted a trike that is fully enclosed and fully capable in all driving conditions that is freeway capable and gets above 100mpg. After determining my wants and needs I looked at the DIY plans and concept vehicles past and present, I researched them for years until I came up with a suitable game plan.

The game plan that I came up with is called TIGON and is a conglomeration of many different vehicle designs all under one hood! Some of my inspirations include the 1954 Fiat Turbina, Quincy-Lynn Urba Centurion, Volkswagen L1 series of prototypes, and the 2002 Opel eco-speedster. I incorporated many design features and elements from these vehicles into the Tigon. While the Tigon is very much still a work in progress the building phase has begun and I thought it would be a good time to share it with the world and get some initial feedback underway.

I hope you all will be able to find some good use out of this thread for your own personal builds as well as find enjoyment in learning how to build a diesel electric hybrid trike from the ground up.

Best wishes,

GreenHornet...

Here is my initial sketch and specs sheet for the TIGON. Hopefully soon I will be able to model it up into a 3D program that is the goal anyways. I am currently tweaking the clay model so once that is done I will most likely start playing with the 3d computer applications. If anyone has experience with 3d design feel free to chime in on your experiences and any advice into which programs would be a good one to start off on.

Enjoy gang,

GreenHornet..

Hey gang,

Today I took the chassis over to the shop for blasting so by the end of the day it will be all rust proofed and ready to start bolting on the front end parts!

I will post some pics later this evening of the before and after shots!

Do you intend to have it be a "pure" parallel hybrid? I.E. the diesel will not be able to charge the batteries and you will have to be able to power it with the diesel alone if the battery discharges fully.

Will the electric motor and the diesel power the same wheel(s) together, or will they power separate wheels? What is your planned layout for the drivetrain? Will it carry just the driver, or two people?

Are the front wheels separate and covered with their own fairings, or is the body all in one shape? A Cd of 0.13 is pretty ambitious, especially if the wheels are separate.

Hi Niel,

So the initial prototype will have a hybrid layout similar to what you would find in the Honda Insights. In other words it has the engine flywheel replaced with the electric motor.

So it looks like this = Diesel Engine-Electric Motor-CVT-GL1800 drive shaft and final drive ratio.

This set up works better in the urban environment where I am located than the series hybrid designs. This set up also costs less than the series architecture. However this vehicle platform could easily support a series hybrid design as well and would be easier to set up actually since the diesel engine and electric motor could be completely independent. It would just cost more money since you would need an added motor/controller and larger battery bank.

Since the diesel engine and electric motor are on the same shaft they can be used in tandem or separately to propel the vehicle. The electric motor has the ability to start the diesel so no need for a separate starter or alternator or extra electric motor/controller. You also have the ability for regenerative braking as well as plug in charging if desired.

The vehicle will be powered by the single rear wheel. The front wheels are not powered in this vehicle they are only used for steering. The Triumph GT6 front suspension and steering components are retained. The GT6 was a front engine rear wheel drive car. It has unequal double wishbone suspension up front with rack and pinion steering. The week points of the GT6 and Spitfires were the rear suspension and differentials. So I eliminated this by going with the single rear wheel along with the added weight of the GT6 rear end components.

The vehicle will retain the seating capacity of the original GT6 which was a 2 seat side by side arrangement.

The body retains the GT6 style bonnet which was all one piece and flipped forward for easy access to the engine bay. The bonnet will cover the front wheels for better aerodynamics. The front grill will be controlled not only at point of access but also at the point of release.

The front and mid body design is being modeled after the Fiat Turbina with some key changes. The front grill entry and nose shape is being more aerodynamically shaped and controlled. The wheel wells are being smoothed out a little bit for better airflow. The height of the roof will be smoothed out as well for better aerodynamics. The Fiat Turbina had a height of 49" and the GT6 had a height of 47" respectively. The Tigon will have a finished height of 42"

The Fiat Turbina had a cd of 0.14 and held the record for some 30 years, which for a 1954 vehicle was pretty amazing and still is for today's cars. The front track of the Turbina was 51" which is exactly the same as the GT6. The width of the Turbina was 63" and the GT6 was 56-57" depending on which model. The similarities between the two cars is one of the reasons I went with the GT6 chassis platform! Another reason is the GT6 chassis is a backbone design that is lightweight and strong good for 2 seaters. This chassis allows me to build a lightweight composite body shell that is completely modular. GT6 composite body shells of fiberglass reinforced composite weigh roughly 100lbs to give you an idea.

I think by reshaping the front, controlling the front grill airflow, reducing height, and tapering the back just right in more of a tadpole design this should yield some pretty good results. I think 0.13 is in the realm of real possibility although very ambitious in deed.

I apologize for the lengthy post here.

Talk to you later,

GreenHornet

Can you post a picture of the Turbina? I've not seen that one, or at least I don't recognize the name.

Interesting project. But have you never considered to turbocharge the engine?


:thumbup:

I like the Opel Eco-Speedster (and also the regular Speedster) too. Someday I'll still build a replica of it...

Most people are not familiar with the Fiat Turbina it is one of those rare gems. Here are some drawings of it so that you can see its aerodynamic profile. At first glance it is not what you might expect from a car that is world famous for its cd of 0.14 during its time. I have made modifications to these drawings as you will see a little resemblance to the Tigon sketch I initially provided.

The aerodynamics and weight are the two areas I am focusing much of my attention on as I see these areas as critical to the overall success of the vehicle.You can put whatever engine and electric motor in it you want and as many batteries as it can hold but its all for nothing unless you get the aerodynamics correct and are able to keep the weight low.

Sure I have turbocharged small diesel engines before with success. I have also used water/methanol injection on them. Both work well and do help reduce pollutants. I will most likely do it with this vehicle as well however this is not my first objective. This will most likely come last as the vehicle has been completed and tested.

I hope you or somebody makes an Eco-Speedster replica that is one awesome car. It is funny you brought that up because my friend still has a VW 3 cylinder 1.4L TDI waiting for me if I want it. I thought this would be the perfect motor to use as a reproduction eco-speedster build. This was the direction I was going to initially go but then decided to go with a hybrid design which now that I am immersed in I could have saved myself much money just going with the TDI!

Oh well besides there are currently so many cars that can go fast why add another LOL. I think it would be equally spectacular to design and build a vehicle that has incredible range that is quite capable at freeway speeds as well. Truth be told I rarely get over 80mph last time was months ago in fact. Range is much more useful to me and many others I do believe. So range is at the heart of the project Tigon and that will be my focus for this hybrid.

GreenHornet

Hey guys,

I wanted to post this link to the Urba Centurion so you can see a nearly completed one on the road via youtube links on the site = Urba Centurion 128 mpg Diesel Powered Car.

This vehicle was one of my inspirations for the Tigon build as noted in an earlier post. There is estimated to be only 3 of these in the world. This is to bad really because this vehicle would be a pretty straight forward build and inexpensive if you were just sticking to a straight diesel and no added hybrid components like in the Tigon. The parts for a spitfire and GT6 are relatively inexpensive when compared to more modern vehicles. The parts are still made so very easy to get a hold of and they also offer many performance part upgrades for weight reduction.

The Tigon shares the same chassis as the Urba Centurion. Many of the parts on the Spitfires are interchangeable with the GT6. The main difference with the GT6 is the larger brakes and shocks to handle the straight 6 engine in the GT6 cars. This was one of my reasons for getting the GT6 vs the Spitfire. I liked the idea of larger brakes and front shocks with the GT6. This will help with the added weight up front for the hybrid components.

With 3 wheeled reverse trikes you want to shoot for roughly 70/30 or 75/25 front to rear weight distribution if you can. This helps the trike with stability in hard driving situations and lessens the chance for rollover.

Some initial pics of the GT6 getting it home and tearing into it. The GT6 and Spitfires are notorious for turning into rust buckets especially in the floor pan. This GT6 was no different. I picked it up from a guy who had it outside for some time. I payed $500 for it. So far I have sold off $300.00 dollars worth of parts so I have recouped some of my initial investment.

The chassis was the main thing I was looking for. Surprisingly it was not in that bad of shape compared to how the rest of the body looked luckily for me. The GT6 cars are pretty rare much harder to come by than the Spitfires. So when I found one close to home I felt I needed to jump on it. So far it has worked out really well. Even if I do not sale off anymore parts I am only into the Chassis $485.00.

Today I spent much time getting the media out of the frame and coating it with rust proof primer. It is now sporting a bright yellow chassis with nice green shock towers. Pics of the rust proofed chassis I will have tomorrow.

Let the project begin!

GrenHornet

Back from the sand blasters. I thought they did a pretty good job overall with the chassis it cleaned up real nice actually. Well worth the $200.00 blasting cost. They were done the same day in fact so that saved me in trailer rental fees which for 1 day came out to $29.95. This also saved me a great deal of time and headache trying to do the blasting myself. I also paid my friend $25.00 for his time helping me out for a grand total of $254.95 for the day. I bought $30.00 worth of primer yesterday and was able to coat the entire chassis and shock towers with it.

So to recap total costs for the chassis to this point.

#1. Chassis $500-$300 = $200.00
#2. Blasting = $254.95
#3. Primer = $30.00

Total so far minus paint = $484.95

Here are some pics of the rust proofed chassis. I kept the main chassis yellow partly because I like the color and mainly because I will easily be able to spot grease, oil, and grime later on vs having a black chassis.

So what does this chassis weigh?

I estimate it to be somewhere around 150lbs at max. It would not surprise me if it weighed less than that. I can pick it up and man handle it fairly easy.

So whats up next?

Now that there is a solid primer on the chassis and shock towers I will let it dry up and then give it another light coat. Once that is complete it will be ready for paint when the time comes.

It would have been best if I would have cut off all unnecessary steel from the chassis before the blasting, but I was a little undecided as to how much I will actually need during the rear swingarm attachment stage. So I just left everything in tact and will start to work on the rear swingarm attachment point design.

The rear swingarm will be bolted to the chassis at its pivot points and by the shock tower perch. There really is not much welding or fabrication that will be needed. A few hours of welding if that will be required to get the chassis rolling.

What needs to happen before welding the rear swingarm can start?

Front suspension, brakes, and steering, need to be installed so that I can attach the front wheels and tires. This will allow me to determine the ride height and get the proper angle for the rear shock tower perch and pivot points.

So its time to go shopping:)

I thought I would take a sec to talk about the rear swingarm selection. I decided to go with a Honda Goldwing GL1800 swingarm for the project. While this is most definitely not the lightest swingarm money could buy it is however very reliable and virtually maintenance free. The swingarm is single sided for easy wheel/tire removal and is a shaft drive style swingarm.

What I liked about this swingarm is that its extremely easy to find them on ebay and around other sites. Many Goldwing riders convert there motorcycles to trikes and then sale off these swingarms at big discounts.

I purchased the entire rear swingarm setup minus a few misc bolts for $195.00 this includes the wheel,tire,monoshock, and complete rear swingarm and differential/driveshaft.

The weight of all these parts combined are 98lbs. So not to bad there but could be reduced big time had I went with a belt drive swingarm setup. The reason why I didn't was that I liked the idea of a little extra weight on that rear wheel for traction. Also a shaft drive is much more quit than a chain drive as well as more reliable with less overall maintenance. I also liked the fact that I can fit the low rolling resistance car tires on the Goldwing wheel to match the front tire diameter. Another nice feature of the Goldwing is its electronically adjustable monoshock.

All in all I think the Goldwing Aluminum swingarm is a nice compliment to the GT6 chassis and should make for a pretty solid 3 wheel platform that is light and stiff.

I included A few pics of the Goldwing components a few of which you can see on 3 wheeled reverse trike builds. I also included a quick mockup of a diesel motor mid engined and the rear swingarm. The diesel engine is close in size to the one that will be utilized in the Tigon build which was nice to get a visual idea of space requirements.

This past weekend I took a little time to inspect the original front suspension components from the GT6 donor vehicle. Many of the components can be reconditioned and utilized. While there are performance upgrades for many of the components I don't see going custom on all of them as a big advantage.

Here is a list of some of the parts I will be upgrading on the front end:

#1. Shocks = The OEM shocks got the job done but they were not adjustable in anyway. The new shocks I will be going with are both ride and height adjustable. The shocks cost for the pair around $250.00 USD

#2. Springs = The new ones are stiffer and 1" lower than the OEM springs. The cost point is not that much difference between the two. The stiffer springs will help with the added weight in the front of the vehicle. They will also help with the aerodynamic profile of the vehicle being an inch lower. The cost of these are around $78.00 USD for the pair.

#3. Brakes = The OEM are heavy and non ventilated brakes with dual piston calipers. The new ones will be vented discs and 4 piston calipers. The discs are a little bigger than the original but lighter. The calipers are over half the weight of the original calipers. This brake kit also offers alloy caliper brackets that are also half the weight of the originals. The cost of this big brake kit is around $600.00 USD. Although I think the original brakes on the vehicle would be more than adequate for getting the job done I would still have to replace all of it and the price point is less than double. Not to mention the weight savings is pretty substantial. THe OEM calipers alone weigh in at 9.92lbs while the new 4 pistons will weigh 3.96lbs. I am a firm believer in quality brakes and think this upgrade is worth every penny.

#4. Hub and stub axle = Upgrading these components are essential if you are thinking about going with a larger wheel and tire. Since this is the plan for the Tigon this will be a welcomed upgrade. The new hub and stub axle are made out of Alloy so much lighter than the original and the bearings are uprated as well for increased life. The other part about this that I like is the fact you can specify a new pcd. This opens up the possibility for a much larger wheel selection than what is currently available on the GT6 cars. So with this upgrade you have decreased weight, added strength, and have a much larger selection of wheel options than you would otherwise have staying with the stock hubs. The cost of this upgrade is not cheap at $437.00 USD roughly but gives you quite a bit of advantages that makes it a worth while upgrade.

#5. Wheels = By going with the Alloy hub mentioned above this allows us to modify our PCD to a new modern wheel bolt pattern. The plan is to go with a 4 X 100 PCD which opens the door for many import wheels found on many common cars in North America. The OEM steel wheel that was on the GT6 was a 13 X 5.5 and weighed in at 18lbs. The new wheel selected for the Tigon is the Enkei RPF1 15 X 7 35mm inset at 9.85lbs. The cost of these wheels can be found for under $200.00 new. With this upgrade alone we are saving some major unsprung weight in the vehicle just under half in fact.

#6. Tires = If we compare the original tires on the factory GT6 to new modern tires of today it would be like comparing apples to oranges. Really not a fair comparison in the least. The plan thus far is to go with a Low rolling resistance tire most likely the Bridgestone Ecopias EP422. For the front wheels we will go with the 195/65/R15 at 19lbs and an overall diameter of 25" For the rear Goldwing rear wheel we will be going with Ecopia 195/55R16 at 19lbs and an 25" overall diameter as well. These tires can be had for under $120.00 USD.

#7. Alloy Steering rack mount = Manufacturer states "Rigid mountings mean that all steering inputs at the wheel are transferred directly to the steering rack - no effort is wasted compressing soft bushes. Fitting these mounts will result in sharper steering and provide better feedback through the steering wheel - they will also never wear out!" For the cost of $29.45 USD this is not a bad upgrade especially as it eliminates maintenance while improving performance.

There are a few other upgrades I am considering but will wait until I have the vehicle complete and tested out before I change things up. I think the upgrades I have listed above for the cost will be more than adequate to bring the vehicle up to a modern performance level while not breaking the bank. Now you can get an idea of the costs associated getting the Tigon to a rolling chassis level. At this point its fair to say to get Tigon rolling its around $3,200 USD estimate. This is a pretty fair estimate as I currently have $500.00 into the chassis and $200.00 into the rear swingarm. This leaves me around $400.00 to get the swingarm mounted to the GT6 chassis and for all the other small low cost parts.

This project is not a dirt cheap project by any means but should still be far less expensive than any hybrid sold currently around the world not to mention will have far superior fuel economy and range! My original budget goal for the completed project was under $14,000.00 USD. So we will see if we can get there! I think at this point I am giving myself a fighting chance despite all the added upgrades.

Well its time to get back to the grind,

GreenHornet

Today I started working on the top view of the Tigon. Still much work to be done on it but you can get an idea of the general aerodynamic shape I am going for here. The body design if you are wondering is a heavily modified Fiat Turbina. There are some improvements I have made to the body design as you will start to see as the sketches become more refined.

So where did I get this idea anyways?

I purchased the Urba Centurion plans many years ago which gave me the original idea of creating my own body shell and utilizing a donor chassis. The plans also pointed me into the diesel direction as the energy source. Although the Urba Centurion is a solid design that achieves over 100mpg, I thought it could be made much better performance wise and improved upon aerodynamically.

The original only had a 17hp 3 cylinder diesel in it for propulsion which gave it a horsepower to weight ratio of 1200lbs/17hp = 70.5 ratio. I think this was fine for the time but for today's standards I think you could use a lot more on the low and top end. For a quick comparison the Geo Metro XFi had a Horsepower to weight ratio of 1,621lbs/49hp = 33 with 58 torque @ 3,300rpm. So its safe to say the Urba Centurion could use a little help in the acceleration department. The Urba Centurion topped out at 65mph which to me is to slow for our modern freeways. The plans do not state the 0-60 time but I estimate it to be very slow to say the least! The Geo Metro again for comparison sake can theoretically hit 100mph and many individuals have stated getting it up to 88 to 90mph.

The Urba Centurion was not meant to be a speed demon by any means and I am not trying to build the Tigon as such either, however I feel as though the Tigon needs to have better acceleration than the Urba Centurion and better acceleration than the Geo Metro. In order to achieve this I new I would have to do a major update to the general plans of the Urba Centurion. So that is exactly what I am doing. When I decided to move forward with the plan I came across another plan set of a person who turned an Opel GT into a diesel hybrid. This sparked my interest into hybrids and I have been researching them ever since.

For many years I was dead set on an all electric Tigon, but my practical wife stepped in and thought for the first prototype it would be good to go the hybrid route. This way it has the opportunity to appeal to more people and I tend to agree. I have always loved the idea of driving on electric helping to decrease my carbon footprint but also driving on biodiesel or recycled petroleum products. So why not build the Tigon to do both? I could not come up with enough reasons not to so the Tigon Hybrid was born and will in fact be the first prototype.

After reading and studying the Urba Centurion and other plans I felt as though it was time to create an updated modern plans booklet. You can absolutely learn a lot from the Urba Centurion and other plan sets, but I felt the plans had potential for expansion into theory and component selection. These are 2 areas of the Tigon plans I will definitely expand on.

In order to achieve my performance goals and range I new that I would have to go diesel with electric. I almost went all diesel with a VW 1.4L 3 cylinder TDI but I liked the idea of using electric in town to much and felt the combination of the two would be overkill. Then I stumbled onto the Smart for two CDI .8L turbo diesel. Now I thought this would just about be perfect but quickly realized that if I was going to be making a plan set for this vehicle it would need to be practical for people here in the US to get the parts for it. So both of those engines would not work as they are both illegal in the US currently.

So I settled on a 2 cylinder .79L 19hp V twin diesel that is both cost effective and legal here in the states. It holds an EPA Tier 4 rating and I have no problem importing the engine through customs. The company I am getting the engine from also has a 10kw genset based on this engine that is EPA certified as well so perfect for the series hybrid design option. This diesel is more efficient than the original Urba Centurion Diesel and more powerful. This component selection really sets the stage for the rest of the vehicle. The weight of the engine is only 126lbs compared to 181lbs of the Urba Centurion. So not only is it more powerful and efficient it also weighs 55lbs less.

The electric component of the hybrid drivetrain will use a brushless design. Not completely set on whether to go PMAC or BLDC. I thought I had it all figured out until the company I was going to get the PMAC motors from has backed out for whatever reasons. So I may have to go the BLDC route which I have all ready contacted numerous suppliers and have some solid options lined up at affordable pricing.

The Urba Centurion had a curb weight of 1,200lbs. I felt I could easily knock off 200lbs or more to the design with modern materials, 3 wheeled platform, and better component selection. So far I am sitting at 611lbs diesel only and 706lbs with hybrid components. So it looks promising at this point I can definitely knock off 200lbs to the Urba Centurion design. The vast majority of the components have gone into the weight calculation thus far. There really is only small minor parts that have not been accounted for. So I feel pretty good so far with my design weight.

The lower weight gives me some options I would not have if the vehicle was 1,200lbs. First I can go with a smaller electric motor and battery bank. This opens the door for a 20kw peak motor to be used for traction purposes. You would find this size on motorcycles and smaller electric vehicle builds. Do to the low weight and enhanced aerodynamics of the Tigon this small of a traction motor is very possible. This further cuts weight and costs. The voltage range I will be utilizing will most likely be 120V. A brushless water cooled 20kw DC motor I have been looking at weighs 35lbs and has more torque than the Geo metro engine by a longshot. The motor will put out over 55hp peak. So very light, compact and powerful electric motor. looking at the numbers if we can in fact get down to 1,000lbs curb weight and we can safely put out 55hp peak we have a hp to weight ratio of 18. This is far better than the Geo metro or Urba Centurion not to mention we have instant torque available at 0 rpm perfect for in town use or getting onto the freeways.

The body design was taken from the Fiat Turbina one of the most aerodynamic cars of all time. It just so happened that the Turbina had very similar size specs as the GT6 I used for the donor chassis. So I have been studying the Turbina as well as general vehicle aerodynamics and incorporating what I learn into the Tigon body design. At this point I think I have a pretty solid body design being sketched up definitely needs to be refined but has a good profile and modern look going. The Tigon definitely does not have your normal 3 wheeled trike feel to it. In fact it looks more car like than trike and this was part of my goal. I wanted to have a 3 wheeled trike that has an all year round cabin rather than open cockpit like most of the 3 wheeled designs you see. This creates more versatility I believe and is more practical for the majority of people to use as a commuter vehicle including myself.

Tigon will definitely not be the answer to all of our fuel problems, but it will provide a good option to help reduce them responsibly. I hope as this build thread continues you all will find it interesting and helpful.

GreenHornet

Here's the Fiat Turbina:

http://www.autoconcept-reviews.com/c...allpaper/1.jpg

The 0.14 Cd is great, but the Panhard LM64 was 0.13 in 1964, 10 years after the Turbina. There are some amazing MG's from around then, as well.

I'm confused - is this going to be a 3 wheeled vehicle?

Hey Neil,

The Panhard LM64 is pretty awesome thanks for sharing it! It is hard to believe that car could go 155mph with only a 2 cylinder engine. Just goes to show how much aerodynamics can have on a vehicle. I wonder what the curb weight was of that vehicle?

The Tigon is going to utilize a 3 wheeled reverse trike platform. So unlike the Urba Centurion which utilizes only the Triumph Spitfire chassis the Tigon will incorporate the Honda Goldwing rear swingarm into the GT6 chassis to make it a reverse trike and quite unique. Despite it being a 3 wheeled vehicle I am trying to go with a more 4 wheeled aerodynamic profile.

I hope this cleared up any confusion take care,

GreenHornet

I think I found the weight of the Panhard LM64 correct me if I am wrong because the site is in French and I am not so up to speed on that language but it stated a weight of 570kg or 1256lbs!

Here is the link to the page = Panhard CD LM 64 : LA ROUTE NOUS APPARTIENT!

With a weight of 1,256lbs and cd of 0.13 the Panhard is a pretty good representation of what I am aiming for with the Tigon. I am hoping with the Tigon I will be able to get to 1,000lbs which if I was going diesel only I definitely think I can get there but its going to be really tough in a hybrid version. I am all ready at 706lbs so there is not much wiggle room with the hybrid.

I did some more digging on the Panhard and confirmed its light weight and cd. Here are the specs:

Weight = 560kg/1,234.59lbs
cd = 0.13
Height = 1.07m/42in
Length = 4.25m/167.28in
Width = 1.64m/64.56in

For comparison my rough specs on the Tigon:

Weight = 900lbs Diesel only and 1,250lbs hybrid
cd = 0.13
Height = 42in
Length = 172in
Width = 63in

My first sketch of the Tigon you can see I also have front and rear wheel well covers like the Panhard. The rough dimensions were also very similar and the Tigon also uses a 2 cylinder albeit diesel LOL! The diesel in the Tigon I am using could never compete with the Panhard 850cc 2 cylinder which could put out 60hp but if we used an electric motor in the right configuration with the diesel we just might be able to compete! I bet if you used a parallel configuration with the Smart .8L CDi you could do it! Which I almost did actually in the beginning. I could have bought the Smart CDi engine I still could in fact but at the end of the day this is not meant to be just a one off build. The Smart CDi can be chipped to produce 65hp but its a 3 cylinder so not as impressive as the Panhard 2 cylinder 850cc engines. For a diesel though the Smart .8L actually is not bad it would definitely have more low end torque than the Panhard!

I would need to figure out with a cd of 0.13 how much hp would be needed in the Tigon to maintain a 140mph cruise? from this I could then determine what size electric motor and battery bank size I would need along with all the rest.

That will have to wait for later because its time to scoot off.

Have a good day everyone,

GreenHornet

Got it - I'm curious to see how the aero in the back works.

Edit: the site you linked to says the Cx (Cd) is 0.12, actually. I think the 0.13 is the accepted number though? Search EM for the Panhard LM64 and you will find lots of discussion and pictures.

Due to the 3 wheel configuration the rear centered wheel would need to be wrapped and ground effects would have to be utilized. I am pretty sure the Aptera has a wrapped rear wheel but not absolutely sure on that.

This is my initial thought on how to deal with the centered rear wheel. As far as the teardrop sloping from front to back I will shape it much like the profile you see in the Fiat Turbina and CD-Panhard LM64. Only difference is I will only have 3 wheels vs 4. I will also not have the side wings or fins.

All of the sites I checked out except the one I provided a link for stated a 0.13 so maybe you are correct in that it is the accepted cd. Either way its still very impressive so again thanks for sharing. looking at the CD-Panhard really gives me hope for gain now. It is more similar in specs to the Tigon than that of the Turbina, even down to the weight. looking at it actually confirmed in my mind that I am not completely crazy LOL hahaha. What I am proposing is not all that far fetched as one might first conclude. It is not going to be a piece of cake from any stretch of the imagination, but if I take my time and stay disciplined I think I have a real shot at accomplishing my goals.

Talk to you later Niel,

GreenHornet

Yes, the Aptera had a fully faired rear wheel. In the initial prototypes, it used a conventional swing arm, but it suffered from a lot a squatting under hard acceleration, so they had to engineer a more sophisticated arrangement.

Today I was thinking about the weight distribution and how it relates to the center of gravity in a 3 wheeled design. Most all of my research concludes that in a 3 wheeled design you want to keep the cg as close as possible to the 2 side by side wheels and as low as possible. By doing so greatly reduces the risk of rollover and enhances overall stability.

Another very important aspect to this is sprung/unsprung weight in a light vehicle. You want to have as low an unsprung weight as possible especially in a low mass vehicle such as Tigon. With today's technology you can have larger wheels which are extremely light. This allows you to decrease unsprung weight and give better stability and handling characteristics. Larger wheels and tires will also help smooth out the ride in a low mass vehicle like Tigon.

When thinking about the Tigon hybrid design there will have to be many compromises made in order to get it completed in a practical time frame and on budget.

Today there are many different hybridization options available to the builder. We can go with a micro, mild, or full hybrid capable design. The cost and complexity go up as you get closer to the full hybridization model.

For the Tigon prototype my thought is to stay in the middle of the road so to speak. So I am adopting a more mild approach to the hybridization design. While I think it would be awesome to build a full hybrid, cost and complexity must be taken into careful consideration. I think currently the mild hybrid offers good benefits while still keeping the costs practical for the budget minded folks like myself. I think this is a good starting point and will allow me to get it up and going quicker. It also gives me a platform to test and build upon.

Looking at the Urba Centurion it gets as high as 128mpg @ 35mph constant speed and as low as 65mpg in the urban traffic environment. The vehicle could do 85mpg at 55mph which is still very good considering no hybrid here in the states can pull that off.

Looking at the numbers to me it is still not really all that practical. I think by hybridizing the basic concept huge gains can be maid both in town and on the freeway. The main fuel loss for any ICE is during the initial starting acceleration. By hybridizing the ICE with the electric motor we can eliminate this disadvantage. The next big fuel loss for any ICE comes in at idle in the urban environment. By hybridizing it we also get rid of this parasitic loss.

The trick is to size and position the components properly for vehicle integration. Many things play into the overall fuel economy. One important factor is gearing the Urba Centurion had a final drive ratio of 3.89 and 4th gear overdrive of 0.84. By swapping gears one can easily increase cruise MPG as well as enhance low end acceleration. The Urba Centurion was limited by the Spitfire Transmission gear selection which was not very wide. However consider a full transmission swap such as a Tremec T5 and presto you have just gave yourself a world of gearing options as well as greater availability. The T5 has an overdrive available at .63 which would have made a good difference with the Urba Centurion. The rear differential of the Spitfires also had a 3.27 gear available. Swap that gear with the .63 overdrive of the T5 and MPG would have been much better even. Not to mention you could also have higher 1st and 2nd drive gears on the T5 for much better acceleration potential despite having a higher final drive ratio.

Look at the VW strategy for there 1L series of cars this is not much different really. VW uses there DSG tranny in there 1L series of cars. Proper gearing can have a big effect on MPG so this has to be chosen wisely.

While I am a big fan of the T5 for the Tigon prototype my thinking is going simple and even lighter than the T5. Despite the T5 being only 75lbs and having a virtually unlimited gearing selection and configuration, I decided to go with a simple CVT arrangement to start. The CVT I decided to go with is only 32lbs and has an acceptable gear spread for in town and freeway speeds. By hybridizing the Tigon you can do away with a gearbox altogether since you have the potential for electric reverse. The CVT can handle up to 60kw of power so more than enough for the Tigon design. 60kw puts us at 80hp which so far I have the Tigon at around 46hp combined. So there is still room there for experimentation such as adding a dual electric motor or turbocharging the diesel. Depending on how it works out or doesn't work out the T5 is an excellent backup choice. It is also a perfect choice for somebody down the road who would like to have the manual despite solid CVT performance. Some people just don't like the CVT and prefer a manual so why not be able to offer both as options. The T5 would also open the door for a Lemans style Tigon as they can routinely be built to withstand 500hp or more.

I would like to see the Tigon obtain a combined 100mpg. I don't know if its attainable but it is a great number to work toward and should keep me thinking hard.

What have I been working on the past few days?

Mainly been cleaning up the front suspension pieces I will be keeping. The spindle, top & bottom wishbones, and anti roll bar (ARB) will be retained from the original GT6. Today I should be able to get some rust proofing primer on them. All of these parts will need new bushings and while I am at it I will most likely source all new bolts and nuts. The ARB itself was in good shape but everything else was shot so I will need a new overhaul kit for it. The overhaul kit is priced at $59.33 USD excluding shipping costs. This kit includes the end links, poly bushings, and all brackets nuts & bolts.

The shocks I am using are Spax while not the best in some peoples opinion they will more than get the job done and are ride and height adjustable. They have 28 stages of vehicle stiffness adjustment and are filled with krypton gas. Other options include GAZ and KONI shocks. GAZ being just a little less cost and KONI being the most expensive of the three.

These will be getting ordered up here real soon along with the rest of the front end parts. The majority of the stuff I am purchasing from outside the country mainly from Canley Classics and Rimmerbros so I will purchase them in bulk buys to save on shipping fees.

Hey Everyone,

I started exploring my steering options today and any possible worth while upgrades that I could possibly do with the Triumph GT6 and Spitfire stock systems.

I found some upgrades that I will definitely be purchasing that I thought I would share. All of these upgrades are direct replacement so no need for any extra fabrication work.

#1. Quick Rack Assembly $202.37 USD
#2. Alloy Solid rack mount kit $29.22 USD
#3. Solid Heavy Duty Steering Coupling $57.71 USD
#4. Steering wheel $233.00 USD

Now there has been another upgrade that I have been working on as well. This one would require some thought and custom fabrication work on my part. However this upgrade would be well worth the extra effort. I am talking about an Electronic Power Steering (EPS) Assisted System.

Why would I would consider this upgrade?

First of all the Triumph GT6 and Spitfires had manual steering and while they were pretty light cars steering at low speed and during parking situations could be tiresome and problematic. Most people these days are use to the power steering so going from that to a manual steering would be tough I think. So in my mind if I am taking the time to upgrade the suspension and braking to a modern level I most definitely should do that with the steering as well. luckily for me there is a very cost effective solution to this upgrade and that is the Vauxhall Corsa C. This is a pretty popular and common car over seas and as such has readily available EPS systems for purchase over the internet all day long for under $100.00 USD. You would also need a controller for the unit which can also be picked up over the internet for a low cost.

From my preliminary research I have found this to be a very popular addition to several different Triumph cars including the Spitfires. Many conversions have all ready been performed so there is quit a bit of info available on how to go about doing it so this is good. Every thing that I have read thus far points in the direction that this can and would most definitely work trouble free. So I will be purchasing these parts and starting the customization soon.

Another benefit to this is the ability to upgrade the steering column to an adjustable unit which was not offered on the GT6 cars.

Adding the EPS with the Quick rack Assembly will give the GT6 a modern performance and feel while enhancing the driving experience. Another positive point that can and should not be over looked is it will improve the safety factor by a few degrees as well. So at the end of the day we get a very affordable, modern, light, and safe steering system for the Tigon.

At least you managed to get a solution which is gonna lead to a minimum impact over the fuel efficiency...

Yes The EPS system will have less of an impact then if I would have tried to implement an hydraulic system.

The goal is to keep the diesel engine as free as possible of all parasitic devices.

So far I have eliminated the Starter, Alternator, and Water Pump from the diesel engine. This frees up the diesels full horsepower capability. Which in a 2 cylinder every bit of horsepower helps!

The diesel is a V twin, which will lend it self quite nice to twin turbos :-) So it will be interesting to see how much horsepower we can make out of that little 2 cylinder diesel. I will have to design my own water/methanol injection system for it, which will not be to difficult. The injection once its fine tuned should allow the diesel to handle the twin turbos just fine :-)

I think you will digg it when I am done Cripple Rooster :-)

GreenHornet

So, how are you gonna start it? Using the electric traction motor to also start the Diesel?


Honestly, I'd advice you to get a single turbo, preferably a twin-scroll. That would lead to a lighter setup and a single turbo seems to be gonna spool faster from lower revvings :thumbup:

Yes the electric motor replaces the starter and alternator! This is one way how to setup a parallel hybrid vehicle. I used to work for GM and this is how they did it on there vehicles. The difference is they used a belt and pulley method and I will link directly to the drive shaft. Linking to the driveshaft is more efficient. This is how the Honda insight is configured they simply replace the flywheel with the electric motor.

The water pump is also electronic check it out = http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electr...0-details.aspx

On the turbo design:

My thought was to use a parallel twin turbo setup with an IHI RHB31's. I would assign one turbo to each cylinder bank. This would provide good symmetry and also simplify the plumbing vs a single larger turbo design.

I don't think they make a twin-scroll turbo small enough for the 2 cylinder!

Here is a little bit more info on the Electric water pump I will be using = Electric Water Pumps

This is in no way a cheap way to go they are expensive however they are far superior to our mechanical belt driven water pumps. They will last a long time, you will not need to be replacing these guys. Over time they will more than pay for themselves with efficiency and durability.

GreenHornet

Today I want to talk a little bit about chassis selection, engine placement and hybrid design.

The plan thus far is to go with an RMR engine configuration. This for those of you who do not know what RMR is that stands for Rear Mid engine rear wheel drive. This is a pretty common engine configuration that you will see on sports cars. Mainly due to its favorable weight distribution and low moment of inertia characteristics. There are also Front mid engined designs but far less common.

The Tigon utilizes a Triumph GT6 chassis for part of its platform. The GT6 was a front engined rear wheel drive design. It employed a light backbone chassis very similar to other makes and models of its time. These designs were favorable for small 2 seat cars and can be seen today like in the Miatas for example. The backbone chassis is very strong for its size and works quite well with medium speed 2 seat cars. This was part of my reasoning for selecting this type of chassis. This style of chassis while not be the lightest or strongest represented but for me a good balance at an affordable cost. Not to mention for the prototype it presented a viable test platform that can be constructed quickly with little custom fabrication. This allows me to put more time into other areas of the build.

Moving forward if the Tigon ends up being what I imagine and is popular the need for a new improved chassis design will most likely be needed. Until that day if ever the GT6 and Spitfire chassis will work out great.

The chassis is set up quite nicely for a front engine placement. I thought about this a lot especially when considering the hybrid design layout. It would be extremely easy and favorable in many ways to go with a series hybrid layout with this vehicle.

The pros of this I listed:

#1. The front engine area could easily be adapted for a genset serial hybrid.
#2. Weight distribution would be favorable
#3. Would eliminate heavy drive axle
#4. Could locate diesel fuel tank behind seating compartment for max safety.
#5. More room in back for electric traction motor and other components

All of these advantages might lead one to wonder well why am I not going with this setup?

There are some key reasons why and I will explain them here. First of all while series hybrids can be designed for similar efficiency as a parallel design the majority of the time they are not. Some of the reasons include in the design itself. Series hybrids convert electric energy into mechanical and back again each time losing efficiency. Parallel hybrids do not suffer such penalties. The argument is a generator can be set to run in its most efficient operating range unlike a parallel layout, while this is true it is difficult to design a working model that creates enough energy to run the electric only traction motor all the time without the need to stop and charge up. The Tigon being light and aerodynamic would represent a perfect test subject for such a prototype as energy demands would be low and you could quite possibly achieve a vehicle that could run off the generator continuously without the need to stop and let the generator charge the batteries.

To achieve this it is more difficult and costly to put it simply. The series requires an extra electric motor and controller for best efficiency such as in a BLDC or PMAC electric motor designs. You typically also have to have a larger buffer in battery storage again increasing weight and cost. Batteries cost far more than diesel fuel for the amount of energy storage capabilities. So I decided to go with the least complicated, least weight, and least cost hybrid design I could and that led me to the parallel layout.

So why not use the parallel layout upfront instead of moving the engine location rear mid engined?

#1. You would need the heavy drive line unless you wanted to drop $1,000+ USD for a custom carbon fiber drive line. still adds complexity and weight!
#2. More exhaust piping and weight decreases aero potentially
#3. Less control of front air dam flow internally for aerodynamic purposes.
#4. Worse weight distribution.
#5. Less traction on rear tire not good in 3 wheel rear wheel drive design.
#6. Worse Polar Moment of Inertia

The main problem moving the hybrid drive train toward the rear was unlike in a 4 wheeled car weight distribution is much more critical. In a 3 wheeled reverse trike design you want to shoot for a 70-75% front weight distribution for best handling and safety characteristics. I needed to make sure that moving the drivetrain back would still allow me to get close to this appropriate ratios. Once I determined that I could still have a good ratio the decision was a no brainer. I still have some negatives with this layout nothing is a perfect world but the positives greatly out weight the few negatives. All in all I have much more advantages to this platform design than I would have if I would of went series hybrid and or kept the engine up front! Luckily for me my little diesel and electric motor are very light the Diesel weighing in at only 126lbs and the electric motor at 35lbs. Had I chose a bigger diesel and or larger motor most likely I would have had to have the hybrid drivetrain up front in the original engine location.

I am able to go with a smaller diesel engine due to the light weight and aerodynamic profile of the vehicle. If I would of done a straight conversion the increased weight and much worse aerodynamic profile of the GT6 would have made it impractical. The Urba Centurion made a solid attempt at fixing the GT6 aerodynamic flaws and weight penalty but still had much room for improvement. This improvement is what I am setting out to accomplish albeit at a larger expense but still in the realms of the average persons budget just not dirt cheap like the Urba Centurion. I am for the most part using upgraded parts that are much more costly than if I just used GT6 parts from the bone yards. I think the weight and overall quality is worth the added costs. We will see in the end if it was all really worth it I suppose.

I think now if you were able to read this post in its entirety you have a good idea of why I chose the parallel hybrid layout and why I chose the RMR engine layout. You will also have the reasons why I went with a backbone chassis as the donor of choice. As you can see there is so much to consider it is quite easy to get lost in all the questions.

My best advice and really my best allies are time and patients.

Take care gang,

GreenHornet

I stumbled onto the NR1 vehicle today it boasts some pretty impressive figures. The engine it uses looks pretty revolutionary. Not sure where it is currently in the build process or other bureaucratic nightmares if anyone knows more about this vehicle and engine design feel free to chime in I would love to hear about it!

Vehicle website link = NR1
Engine and cycle link = About

Not just more efficient, but also more reliable :thumbup:


It's not actually impossible to get a twin-scroll turbo small enough for the 2-cyl. Anyway, even if you'd get a regular turbo, I still believe a single is better to overcome the turbo-lag, unless you'd get a sequential turbocharging setup, with the smaller one to spool faster at lower RPMs and a bigger turbo as a 2nd stage :D

Hey CR,

Twin scroll are very cool in deed and the sequential idea is awesome. I can tell you are a diesel guy which is good because so am I :-) Who knows maybe one of these days we can collaborate on a project. I have been itching to come down south anyways. It has been to long since I have been to your neck of the woods. South America is a beautiful land so much to see and do. I actually have family down there that would be great to visit.

Anyways my friend I hope Brazil is treating you well and I will talk to you soon

Take care and thanks for the ideas:thumbup:

GreenHornet

There are too many dumb restrictions against Diesel engines in light-duty vehicles in Brazil :mad:

Someday I'll probably have to emigrate, I just need to get a college degree before. Currently attending to a college of Mechanical Engineering :thumbup:

Hey guys,

I have not posted for a while been pretty busy with other things. I have for the most part been doing research on components and playing with TIGON drawings. I have started to read into 3D modeling as I think after I get my sketches a little more refined this will be the next step in the process.

Made some key changes to the original TIGON sketches. First I did away with the doors and opted for a single canopy like you would see in the XR3 or Tri Magnum. I decided on this do to the fact it would make getting in and out much easier. My original sketch had a height of 42" most likely I will try to reduce further to 40". Another change was in the windshield which originally used the GT6 glass. I decided to go with a custom formed Lexan front piece shaped more aerodynamically similar to what you might see on the Opel Eco-Speedster. Next I did away with the rear quarter panel side glass. I also did away with the side mirrors and opted for wide angle cameras similar to what you would see on the VW XL1. The rear canopy has glass and opens for easy access to the engine compartment.

On the TIGON top view I cleaned it up a bit added a single rear brake light shaded and centered as well as left and right turn signals. The vehicle will have a backup camera and audible sensors which will attach to an LCD monitor up front along with the side mirror cameras.

I will post some more sketches soon as I get them touched up a little better!