Using Magnets to increase milage
 

Last year I posted a thread about increasing milage using high powered magnets. I stated I would do a A-B-A test.
I am still getting 34-35 mpg with ethenol fuel. I did an A-B-A test. The milage stayed the same when I took off the magnets.
My conclusions are that the magnet conditions the fuel and the ECU senses the change and adjusts fuel delivery rate to compensate. As the magnets clean out the combustion chamber, it would take thousands of miles to return the carbon buildup and varnish to make the ECU return to orginal mode.
I believe the fuel we pump is stale and contaminated with particles from air and tank like leaving fuel in a lawnmower over the winter. I think the magnet restores the fuel to original form, expanding it, then the ECU senses it and reduces the fuel flow.

A-B-A test show no difference with fuel rail magnets. Fuel rail magnets don't work.

If you had stopped there, I would have nothing to disagree with.

If you try some studies outside of a car, I think you'll find magnetic fields have little to no impact on fuel. Further study will demonstrate that fuel filters, before and after the fuel pump, remove the particulates you mentioned.

Here's one for you. Stick a magnet on cylinders #2,4 fuel injectors. Pop the cylinder head off in two years, and I'll bet you dollars to donuts there's no discernable difference in combustion chamber cleanliness.

only way magnets help gas mileage is if they are part of an electric motor.

...actually, the *best* use of a magnet in the pursuit of fuel-economy, is to use one to hold your SGII securely onto the dash for easiest viewing.

junk
 

I think that magnets are a not going to work, else they would come new that way. the chemistry also does not work that way. if in that short of time it can change the molecular shape they in the same time it will move back.

I think that you would find that the magnets would destroy the injector, an electro magnet.

Maybe this would work:

http://foggland.com/magnetic_car.jpg

(I think it's been PhotoShopped. ;) )

Yeah. The only way you're going to increase mpg with magnets is to mount one on a long pole (perhaps telescoping?) sticking out the front bumper, then drive close enough behind a semi that you can "latch on" to it.

Which might even be a safe way of drafting, if the pole had some shock absorbing capability...

I believe you will believe whatever you want to believe in order to believe that the magnets work... :rolleyes:

I can't see how magnets could be used to 'condition the fuel' if there was enough effect on the particles to pull them into alignment (as some of these wonder things suggest) surely cars would suffer huge amounts of fuels starvation and pressure spoting from fuels passing close to Hi ouput electrics, like the start solenoid, alternator or starter motor etc.

Also i have to agree about the a-b-a thing. If you add something on the B test and nothing changes, ITS NOT HAVING AN EFFECT. if it did change from a-b but stayed the same b-a then it was a purely placebic change like an improvement in your base driving style.

Robchalmers, I know everyone makes fun of what they don't understand. I am trying to find what is causing the huge milage gain. The only thing that has increased my milage over 30 years of driving was when I installed magnets around the fuel line. I could feel the extra torque immediately. The milage increased immediately. The car had a slight hesitation and I could feel the drivability improve. I installed magnets on both of my cars and they both increased from 28-29 mpg highway 36-38 highway immediatly the milage dropped a little when ethenol came out. That equates to almost 30 % change in milage.
One car has 30k and the other has 90k. Both are Nissan which use rubber fuel lines. I don't believe this is just coincidence. I put magnets on my father's big v-8 mercury and his milage went over 29mpg immediately.
I am convinced the magnets are the cause as they are the only variable. I am using regular fuel and the manufacturer recommends premium for best performance. I can push the engine up a hill and there is no knock or pinging. Before it would ping with regular fuel.

good article, I have personality asked this of several engineers & chemists and gotten the same response.

Stop for just a moment, and consider the idea that it's just possible that we DO understand, and you're the one that doesn't, and are in line to be taken for an expensive ride by some con artists.

As for belief... Well, I really, really do want to believe in the fairies at the bottom of the garden :-)

Jamesqf, Thanks for you concern, I have already invested a small amount to try the magnets myself. I have had them on for over two years and have enjoyed substantial savings, far more than my small investment.
I am not saying that the magnets are causing the increase in milage, what I am saying is when I put the magnets on my milage went up.
Last year I lent a set of magnets to a member and I have't heard anything back from him.
My conclusion is the vehicle must have fuel injection and an ECU to show any savings.
Another thought, I think everyone can agree that a magnet has a push pull effect on liquids. Consider that there is no electricity in the floor, but if you slide your feet across carpet you have electricity. When a magnet is installed around a fuel line there would be the same push-pull effect, only the magnet stays stationary and the fuel moves past the magnet causing friction and exciting the fuel.

You will have to forgive the fun poking here as there have been a lot of claims about magnets. They give power, they improve FE, they make cars not designed for unleaded fuel suitable for use with it, they make cars fly, they make handling better, the cure arthritis, they cure colds - anything you can think of.

Usually these claims do not work so someone claiming they do arouses doubt and ridicule. Even if they earnestly believe them.

An obvious question here is did the torque increase go away when you took the magnets off or is it still there ? If it is keep them off and see if it goes away.

I don't believe that the magnets got you your improvement either. If you did get an improvement in FE then maybe thats down to your improved technique which is reason for congratulation, so well done with the improvement. As Tesco (UK Supermarket) says - every little helps.:thumbup:

And if it did make the improvement then it has paid for itself then double-bubble as you have all the 100+ tips to go for too. :D

I have a hard drive magnet that I will be doing that very thing with! (Too bad there is no steel in the car, I have to add some!)

Arragonis, Thank you for your wise reply. I see your Scottish. My great uncle served in the Black Watch in the war (probably I). His name is listed somewhere, maybe Edinburgh. He was with the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders 2nd Battalion.
I take your advice with the utmost respect, I'm afraid the A-B-A test is not going to work in a timely fashion. Whatever caused the milage to increase has done it permanantly. When I took it off nothing changed. I think the ECU has been changed and won't change until the orginal state of the vehicle is returned.
Special testing equipment for reading the ECU parameters may be needed when doing tests to monitor changes in the ECU.

Hondo434's Maxima's fuel log
Efficiency log for: maxi-magnet - 1997 nissan maxima gxe
Lifetime Fuel Economy: 24.74
90-day Fuel Economy: 26.19
3-tank Fuel Economy: 26.2
EPA Rating (% over): 21 (24.7143%)
Total fills: 4
Average cost per gallon: $2.67
Average cost per fill: $33.88
Average cost per mile: $0.11
Lifetime Fuel Economy: 24.74
90-day Fuel Economy: 26.19
3-tank Fuel Economy: 26.2
EPA Rating (% over): 21 (24.7143%)
Total fills: 4
Average cost per gallon: $2.67
Average cost per fill: $33.88
Average cost per mile: $0.11

My fuel efficiency log for essentially the same vehicle (mine is the SE version, his is the base model, but other than trim and slight suspension differences, the same vehicle.)

Efficiency log for: Max - 1998 Nissan Maxima SE
<UL>Lifetime Fuel Economy: 24.35
90-day Fuel Economy: 24.17
3-tank Fuel Economy: 24.73
EPA Rating (% over): 21 (15.0952%)
Total fills: 17
Average cost per gallon: $2.7
Average cost per fill: $48.16
Average cost per mile: $0.11</P><UL>
Lifetime Fuel Economy: 29.51
90-day Fuel Economy: 29.71
3-tank Fuel Economy: 30.64
EPA Rating (% over): 21 (41.4762%)
Total fills: 5
Average cost per gallon: $2.93
Average cost per fill: $39.77
Average cost per mile: $0.1

Here's another Maxima's log.

Efficiency log for: Maxiimoma - 1996 Nissan Maxima GXE
<UL>Lifetime Fuel Economy: 29.51
90-day Fuel Economy: 29.71
3-tank Fuel Economy: 30.64
EPA Rating (% over): 21 (41.4762%)
Total fills: 5
Average cost per gallon: $2.93
Average cost per fill: $39.77
Average cost per mile: $0.1

Shadetree mechanic, What did you want to say about the logs?

Well they used to make cars fly, but apparently junk yards use mechanical claws now instead of giant electro-magnets on cars.

This thread reminds me of the first time I heard that putting a magnet on my fuel line would improve FE, the picture looked a lot like the one in the link,

Digi-Key - 240-2074-ND (Manufacturer - 28A2025-0A0)

but priced at $19.95.

In all seriousness, for a magnet to do anything to a molecule it has to be ferous, or polar. I'm pretty sure the molecules in your fuel are not polar. And even if it were it would take one powerfull magnet to do anything. And even then the alignment it did would undo as soon as it left the field.

Prove all things, hold on to the good I Thess. 5:21
 

Simple comparison. You say the magnets do wonders for gas mileage, but I'm not far behind you in average MPG and there's another guy doing a lot better than either of us. It's the scientific process. In an expirement, you have a control to compare against. I don't use magnets, you do, yet our mpg figures are nearly identical. That would make mine almost a control--I don't live in the same area as you do, so the gas here isn't exactly the same, maybe, but I do have more hills to climb.

To prove a point, you are better off to provide tons of reputable data and let the data do the arguing than to simply reassert your point repeatedly without giving any data to discuss.

Shadetreemechanic, This is good you found some compareable data. Just to show some difference in driving conditions, My maxima is a second car and gets little use. I only drive 1-2 miles at a time so it is tough city driving with cold engine etc. I still get those mpg's. Last year I had a chance to take a short trip to syracuse ny, about 85 miles to visit relatives. I had three people in car and a trunk full of stuff. On that trip a got close to 35mpg. That was the first highway miles I had driven and none since. That just verified that the car was getting better milage.
We usually drive the 06 altima on trips and local driving. I looked at your driving record and it looks like your mostly highway miles. The other max looks like a hypermiler and may be doing extra steps to increase milage. I don't hypermile.
I see you take good care of the your max. and seem to keep good records.

I'm glad you stayed and got over the friendly fun poking. I see Shade has found some other comparible results from similar cars.

I need to change my location a little as I live in Scotland but I'm actually English - only been here since 99 when I got married. I have relatives from WW1 but they were volunteers from the 'pals' batalions - the ones which came from the same place, sometimes the same factory in the Industrial parts of England. They stopped this idea after the big losses on the western front where a pals battalion could suffer 80-90% casualties - effectively wiping out all of the young men from a local area in one go.

There is a Black Watch WW1 memorial in Edinburgh Castle so if you grandfather is named he will be on there.

The Scottish National War Memorial

Good luck and happy Hypermiling. :thumbup:

Sorry if you thought I was not taking you seriously or poking fun at you, but i feel there may be other factors than the magnets. how you use the care you current conciousness of fuel usage etc could all be a factor - even different brands of gas can do a bit!

From my work with fuels and EM Fields (uni projects) I can find now evidence that the Gasoline is effected by the application of flux. Even it you are talking hi-density neodynium mags you're more likely have upset a sensor or the ECU through EM interference than do anything to the fuel.

Secondly the Carpet theory doesn't really hold much water either sadly sorry. 'using firction in a pipe to 'excite' the fuel would increase the pumping load and likely ruin your pump from overload (magnets post pump) or potentially cavitation fatigue (pre pump).


Sorry to be a kill joy i'm just trying to use the experience I have to give an opinion :thumbup:

I'm confused. Which position are you taking?

Also, I strongly doubt the magnets were the only variable that changed between adding them and drawing your conclusion.

FYI: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ery-11445.html

Robchalmers, First, I was not singling you out as " poking fun" but more of a general observation of human behavior. You have good experience and you bring up valid concerns. I am just brainstorming. When I purchased the magnet set, the vendor sent an instruction sheet. He mapped out what to do and what to watch for. He said change the oil or have clean oil then drive 1-2 tankfuls of gas ,then check oil. He said the oil will be black from cleaning out the combustion chamber, I followed the instructions and when I changed the oil it was pitch black and full of carbon chunks. He also said if no change was noticed that you should disconnect battery and wait 30 minutes to reset ECU parameters then go drive on highway , this would be done after running through several tanks of gas. I don't know if that was necessary, but I ended up disconnecting the battery anyway to add another device .
Since you have some EM experience I will give you the specs. on the Magnets I am using. The magnets are small n42 disc magnets axially magnatized. They are assembled in a row ( 5-6 discs) inside a strip of velcro, which makes it easy to apply around the fuel line. I install around the fuel line on rubber section closest to the injectors. That is it. Maybe you can duplicate it.

metrompg, I may be having trouble expressing my thoughts. I think I am saying that the magnets caused something to happen but may or may not be actually increasing mpg. If that makes sense.

n42's seem a little small. Sadly i can't replicate the idea as I run a diesel. To me it just sounds like he told to you to do a service and reset, with the engine running fresh oil it'll probably feel a hell of a lot better anyway!

I'm not sure how it would cause the petrol to de-coke the engine either, sorry to say that sounds like grade A BullSquash, De-Coking while running surely would send it out the exhaust and wouldn't form chunks during, an explosion.

just my 2cents

I tried the commercial fuel line magnets on my previous vehicle, and nothing changed.

...simple two answers:

• two different drivers
• two different vehicles
• two different driving styles
• two different driving locations
• two different driving techniques
• two different traffic situations
• two different gasolines(?)

Robchalmers, the instructions recommended changing the oil, but I did not as it was fairly clean and recently changed. I drove the maxima which has 90k for about 400 miles and it had been a little noisier running engine like a little rattling type vibration in engine. I was out driving and had stopped to do some shopping and came out to leave, I turned on the engine and it seemed like the transmission fell out, the engine was running smooth and quiet. I shut the car off to look on the ground to se eif there was any trans oil or sign of trouble. I didn't see anything so I started the engine and looked again on the ground and saw nothing. So I gingerly drove home hoping not to see a engine light go on. Well it was ok and the engine has run smoothly ever since.

Palemalasion, It's good You tried. There are many sizes,powers,configurations of magnets and there is difficulty knowing if the fuel is within the field of the magnet. I believe you will not see milage gains if you don't have an ECU or fuel injection.I will tell you the vehicles I have had luck with and maybe we can see what is in common with them.
97 nissan maxima
06 nissan altima
2004 mercury marquis
1995 ford 351 auto pu truck
2-2005 s/10 type pu truck
2005 buick suv
the easiest to install on are vehicles with rubber fuel lines.

I don't think anyone here is convinced that you "had luck" with the magnets. Placebo effect maybe, but you can't suggest PaleMelanesian"did it wrong" when you did the testing wrong in the first place. I guarantee that I trust PaleMelanesian to do a proper job, you should see the kinds of records he keeps. I don't know you from adam, but you seem pretty sloppy with the theory, the methods, the reporting, and the conclusions.

Please read/re-read the link about testing: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ery-11445.html

Obviously somebody wasn't paying attention in high school science class :-) In fact, the floor is full of electricity - as is everything else. Remember those pictures of atoms with electrons flying around the nucleus? So what happens (simplisticly) when you slide your feet across the carpet is that you scrape some of the carpet electrons off onto your feet. You're not creating anything, you're just using the energy of your moving foot (which came from food you ate, and so ultimately from the sun) to pull electrons and nucleii apart. Then they snap back together suddenly, creating a spark.

Same with magnets: a piece of iron will be attracted to the magnet and jump to it, but then it takes exactly as much energy to pull the nail away again. It's a conservative force.

Oh? And exactly what was your oil filter doing while all those chunks were floating around?

hondo434 it may be worth entering your history into the fuel log and then everyone can see what you see. It may also be worth monitoring what happens now the magnets are out - I think you said they are out now ?

It may also be worth checking out the other modifications that people recommend and see if you can get some other gains with those.

Any gain is positive, its just we question whether it is what you think it may be, and whether we can reuse it ourselves.

So start your fuel log and stick around to let us know about any other mods and success you have. If you are over 'EPA' (or any official figures) then thats good. The key thing is to keep it up. :D

Jamesqf, That's a good question. how did the chunks get in the oil.i don't know. I would love to have an answer for that question.
I would love to be able to provide all the data that this board requires. My dilemma is I have no way to do it. I have been trying to accumulate some type of data for a year now, but I don't do enough driving to get any amount of data. My wife drives the altima to work ,so I don't have any control over that car, and I only drive the Maxima a few miles a week to the grocery store. Last year we took the Maxima to Syracuse and that is the only time we drove it on the highway. I am asking the help of this board. I would like to find a member who has similar vehicles to me that can drive the miles needed to collect enough data to satisfiy the board. I can provide the magnets to a trusted board member. They should have the same vehicles preferably Nissan with ECU and fuel injection that I have used to match my experiment. If the board can help it would be appreciated:)

well shoot, just build/buy/steal a mpguino so you can test for yourself. and like the link says, use average mpg over the same course/conditions/speed/direction.

dcb, What does a mpguino do?

it keeps track of how long the injector are open (@ low microsecond resolution) vs closed and can count distance tics from the vehicle speed sensor too. And displays instant and a couple averages, translated to various permutations of gallons/miles/time for display.