Vetter streamliner body kit
 

Craig Vetter is calling for a show of hands of interest for his streamlined motorcycle body work kit which is now in the final stages of pre production.
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2012 Vetter Streamliner Kit-Chap 61
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Several years of real world testing have proven 100 mpgUS at 70 mph on a first gen Ninja250 which can be purchased used for $1000. Better cams for the Ninja or a more efficient bike like a CBR250R or 125R could do considerably better on fuel. Streamlining will make an electric bike go much farther also.
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Warm, dry, steady and quiet in buffeting winds. And locking storage for 100+ liters of gear or groceries. Use the full tail for the best aerodynamics or truncate the shape behind the rear wheel for easier parking in the garage.
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Every commuter or world traveler that is fit enough to ride needs one of these to help save our remaining resources.
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Build a Vetter streamliner and help spread the word.
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More from Vetter on Streamliner Kit
 

Thank you for this new thread. At the risk of sounding redundant... there is only one optimum streamlined body shape for the conditions I am designing for... The Vetter Conditions of "70 mph, into a 30 mph headwind, sitting up and being comfortable, being able to carry a useful load - like 4 bags of groceries, being our first choice vehicle in the garage."

Other shapes may be for crouched-over riding or carrying no load, or for 55 mph riding... like the one that evolved in the 1980s Vetter Contests They don't address today's driving and are not relevant.

My latest Streamliner is the optimum shape for today's conditions. Oh, it may vary an inch here or an inch there. But this is it.

It is our nature as designers to think that "another shape might be better".

Get over it. I had to.

As a designer, I try to get the "big parts" right. It has taken four years. I leave it to others to refine... changing a % here and there. Isn't it better to be spend our time refining the correct shape rather than wasting time on a foolish one?

Speaking of refining... To keep this post brief (so you can respond) I have developed only those parts that would be hard for you to make yourself. The proposed Vetter Streamliner Kit reflects much more than the correct shape. It is be made up of five curvy fiberglass pieces that can be economically shipped. The tail is a simple cone of .020" aluminum or milk carton paper with an aluminum foil tape skin. Everything is designed to be light, cheap, easy to repair and available where you are.

The whole point of these posts are to find out if anybody actually is interested in buying Vetter Streamliner Kits. I do not want to waste time providing solutions to problems you don't think you have.

Comments?


Craig

I would be in for a nose and a cowl. Having the built in hand deflectors would be a big benefit when riding in cold or rain. The new cowl and windscreen were the final pieces of your design that really make yours and Alan's bike look trick! These are the complex parts. I understand the desire for minimizing the weight behind the rear wheel and the complexity of the size relationship/ angles involved in fitting bulkheads into a cone in order to get a nice, wrinkle free skin, but these are parts that can be just as easily cut locally with the correct angle on a reciprocating saw from light boat plywood once the templates and angles are designed. I see the tail as being built on a plywood spine running lengthwise along the rear seat frame with bulk heads at the front and behind the rear tire. The inside portions of the plywood then also cut and skeletonized to save weight.
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From your linked site I see you are expecting a cost of about $2250 to get a kit shipped. What all comes in this kit? What was the average MPG going to be?

I built a tail and a nose cone for my car for about $600-700 so I am wondering what is driving that cost?

If I do a bit of ROI calcs:
If i could get the bike for ~$1000 and a kit for $2250 I would have to save a lot of $$$ per year to make the ROI work. reregistration and insurance would be several hundred a year so that would make the ROI a long time indeed for me as I only spend about $1100 in gas a year. If you doubled my MPG to 100 I would half my fuel cost and then after the costs for the bike each year I would save $200 but In MI you cannot ride all year at best you can get 8 months of the year. so at best I would break even each year. If it got 150 MPG then it would save me a net of about $300 a year. thats 3 or more years for the bike then how long for the kit?

Now if I got 30 mpg and wanted the extra risk of riding a bike it would be a fun project :)

Sendler: The nose pieces certainly make the nose easy. RE the back... while the last rearward bulkhead is an easy wood thing, the front, with its generously rounded corner, is not so easy.

RE freshening up the Helix. You are right. I need to find a good mechanic to make it right. It might be cheaper to buy an entire Helix and swap parts.

Weather Spotter: I agree. I don't think streamlining pencils out today. Why do we do it then? For me, it is to learn the TRUTH. Pioneering is pretty heady stuff.

It is possible that fuel will become precious someday. I'd like to be ready, wouldn't you? New Yorkers have been standing in long lines for 5 gallons of gas. Alan Smith goes 400 miles on 4 gallons on his Vetter streamlined Ninja.

With a streamlined, 20 hp bike, you will be as ready as is possible.

Bottom line:

What I seek is a noble goal... to be "living better on less energy."

Well, I count one vote for a nose set. Good.

I would agree that trying is great! being prepaired is one point to why I modded my car. I can get 76 MPG in the summer and mid 50s in the winter :) that is still double epa! and I can do that with 5 people and gear so person miles I am ahead :D

If I already had a bike then doing this would be fun. I think the nose part would be worth paying for but I think I would have fun building the back :)

Would the kit work for a 49cc scooter? those are cheep and get 100 MPG to start with. no insurance needed if it under 50cc. technically (legal) limited to 30mph but no cop cares. the biggest thing with them for top speed is aero. my bother had one and could get 5 mph more ducking down for less aero drag.

Car vs bike fuel consumption
 

There is the very real possibility that, ultimately, a car can go farther on less fuel than a 2 wheeler. The reason is that it can be aerodynamically cleaner with a not much bigger frontal area.

Why do I do bikes? I like bikes. Better yet, the government stays out of my life more with bikes. If I actually manufactured a bike, I'd have no crash testing... air bags, emission testing, etc.

49 cc - about 5 hp - ain't going to give you 70 mph, into any headwind. You need at least 16 hp. But it is looking like, for longevity, maybe 20 hp is needed.

I knew this was coming next. Some of you guys must have a perpetual tail wind. I have driven my 2001 Honda insight 140,000 miles over the last 7 years. My best summer averages were 68 mpgUS at 65 mph. And I draft. I have entered competitions with the highly modified Alfred State University Insight. The best they can do is 82 mpgUS at 45 mph.

How fast could a 5 hp go? 30-40 mph no aero work . All I need is 55mph since scooters are not allowed anyway.

It's a max of 50-55mpg at steady speeds. I use pulse and glide heavily and that is what helps the mpg. Tail winds are nice but my record tank of 75 mpg was trips back and forth to work. Tends to even out the wind. I tended to get harder head winds on the way home in the afternoon then I got helping me on the way to work ( winds are softer at 5am).

I like the overall goal of the project but

Must have been some serious fill error to get all the way from 55 to 75.

With puse and glide I can get that much better. Without it I can only get the 50-55 mpg.

How much can you really get at 65 on a trip. That is my point. Where is your fuel log? The car guys always get defensive and exaggerate over here whenever the subject of car vs bike comes up.

Vetter Streamliner Kit
 

I must reel you in. The goal of this thread is to find out if I should make the kit components so you can streamline virtually any 2 wheeler you want.

http://www.craigvetter.com/Vetter-do...-Helix-123.jpg

I have until Christmas, to decide if here is any interest from you. The parts will cost around $2000 for all five pieces plus shipping from California.

Whtcha think?

Craig Vetter

Designer

I would try and find a way to lower the price of the kit if possible.

You can get a body kit for a car for $500 and it's essentially the same thing as far as pieces and material goes.

Are you building them each by hand? If you could use injection molding or a similar process, you could probably sell them cheaper.

As far as interest goes, I feel that most people who rides bikes couldn't care less about fuel economy. Most like the thrill. The average college kid who wouldn't mind saving money on fuel for his bike probably can't afford a $2000 fairing.

Yes. $2000 is way too high. I might go $300 for a nose and $300 for the cowl as a hobbiest, competitor and out of appreciation for all of the ground work you have done. Most people would probably still find this a stretch.

Everything you say about expense is true. I (we) do projects like this out of passion. Not for money. True too is your observation that most motorcyclists don't care about fuel economy. This saddens me. However, the few that do care are here on the Ecomodder forum.

This kit makes streamlining easy. How many people would you guess - in the world - will want to buy a kit like this? I think you could count them on two hands. There is no money to be made in producing streamliner kits. You cannot buy such a thing from anyone, at any price.

I have my streamliner. I am just trying to help you get one.

Way to go Craig. I have done some body work in composite. Everyone thinks you should just be able to pop them out for about 10 dollars. It aint going to happen.

I had a windjammer back when. After a crash I sent it down a dug well when I was filling it in. I imagine that 500 years from now some archaeologist will dig it out and you will be famous again.

Again great design and proof
Dave
veloliner.com

Sendler,

That mileage sounds way too low !!!!

In the summer, and traveling on a flat country road at 45 mph, the Insight can easily get over 100 mpg. I mean easily. This does not require belly smoothing panels, or a tail any other mods.

In fact on a hot summer day, 120 mpg is more realistic.

Throw in some EOC and now your looking at 130 or more.

I wonder if they used a CVT instead of MT?

Jim.

Craig,

I might be spilling the beans by answering your post here, but I fully intend on Gurney-fying my VF500 motorcycle, then developing a full dustbin fairing for it.

I really do appreciate all the work you have done on yours however.

Jim.

Better get your odo checked. Nobody but you gets even close to that at any speed. The best I have actually SEEN was a really excellent diesel engine swap Insight with fully functional hybrid system who got 92 mpgUS at 45 mph over the road at the Green Grand Prix. Verified. No amount of body work will add 50-60% to the already slippery Insight.

Well, the Vetter Streamliner Kit would be the best way to streamline the bike you describe.

Are you using a MIMA and plugin charging every night? I see no "normal" owners on Fuelly getting within 35% of your numbers.
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take a look at my fuel logs here on EM. look at my 90 day average. I have an excel file with every fill up on my car.

sendler

why are you discrediting everything people say? should I doubt your first post's clams of MPG?

Here is a bigger cross section of pregen stick shift Insights showing a few fringe hypermilers over 70 mpgUS. The best I could get at 65 mph and while drafting was 68 mpgUS in the summer. PnG only serves to cremate your battery in a mild hybrid so I didn't do much of that. Most normal people get 57 mpg on the highway in a stick shift Insight. My geared but otherwise stock CBR250R is over 90 mpg for the same conditions and normal people get about 75.
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I think 3 wheeler is a bit past normal but thats not saying others could not get more if they tried.

I can see 60 mpg in your chart which is amazing for a Matrix but I wouldn't call it 75. That must be about 100% over EPA? Great job! I once got 134 mpg for 130 miles on the track at 45 mph using EOC but I don't go around calling my bike a 134 mpg bike. I have 140,000 miles in a stick shift Insight and have always driven it very carefully since day one. I have talked to tens of other people that have them on other forums. Nobody breaks 80 mpg in a stock Insight on any real road with other cars around. To say that they should all easily break 100 mpg is completely unrealistic.

How hard did you look? My best tank was 13.3 gallons (car was starting to stall due to low fuel and I coasted to a fuel pump) and 1005.1 miles . That equals 75.6 mpg or too a two digit number of 76mpg. If you looked at the graph the tallest bar is that tank. I was jaut starting pulse and glide so I hope to do better next summer.

One tank does not an average make. What happened on this last tank? You have to fit a curve to several points to get an average that really means anything.

The Vetter Streamliner Kit
 

You are drifting away from "Do I make this kit for you?"
http://www.craigvetter.com/Vetter-do...-Helix-123.jpg

Should I make this kit for you?

Thanks

Craig

Thanks but I do not think at this point I will be investing in a bike. Sorry.

Craig- I've followed your build and really appreciate the work you've done. What would you estimate the real world improvement in mpgs for an average motorcyclist would be? I mean normal driving, no special tuning or one off gear sets. Milk carton paper would never hold up for me! Is there any way to get the cost lower? Would a strong demand help lower costs? Could the kit be available bit by bit? That way I could assemble over time as spare cash becomes available and also be able to get "crash" replacement parts. While I'm not looking for 100mpg, I sure would like to get better than 60. I would be interested, just for the increased comfort and practicability factor, and a mileage increase would be a huge bonus.

Back to the subject at hand. . . if Craig makes this kit, who of us would buy it at his price?

Me personally – as much as I would love to have one, and even though I already own a Honda Helix, with my finances I must take a pass. Perhaps someday those of these that get fully assembled will become highly prized collector items trading at enormous dollar vales. They certainly should – as this is groundbreaking work on Craig’s part – who’s obviously driven by passion.

I just read the first four pages of this thread, and besides the detour into fuel mileage debates, I have not seen anyone write about the other big benefit of Craig’s design IMHO – and that being that while riding his streamliner, one is sitting in almost dead calm air – and to me that is a big plus.

So far I have ridden tens of thousands of miles in 37 states in all kinds of weather on a number of motorcycles and scooters, and I for one would certainly have enjoyed a calm air environment while doing so.

My BMW R90/6 which I bought brand new in 1976, was set up from the dealer at my request with a full Vetter Windjammer fairing with the lowers, among other goodies. Outstanding in its day – I wish I still had that motorcycle.

I have followed Craig’s Helix streamliner project from day one with great interest. I’m retired with no more commuting, but little time now for recreational riding. If the expense of purchasing Craig’s kit was of no financial hindrance to me, I would buy one of Craig’s kits in a heartbeat, and then pay someone else to put it all together on my Helix, as I do not have the capability to assemble it myself.

And once it was put together, it would probably be the last 2-wheeler I would ever need to own, as I have read of Helixes getting over 100,000 miles. But I digress. . .

For all of the development work and time that Craig has put into this project, he is certainly to be commended. I believe that he is in the motorcycle Hall of Fame. If not, he certainly deserves to be. I applaud his lifelong passion, and thank him for sharing it with all of us and the world.

Vetter answers questions about streamlining
 

It is horsepower that consumes your fuel.
A vehicle with more horsepower consumes more fuel.
A vehicle with less horsepower consumes less fuel.
Streamlining allows less horsepower to do the job
Therefore, streamlining and horsepower go together.
In American road conditions, 70 mph, into headwinds, etc. we are learning that somewhere around 18 HP* will do the job.

Most 18 HP bikes will not go 70 mph, into a 30 mph headwind, over mountain passes...etc etc. Streamlined, they will. You can see from 5 years of experimenting on my web page that 100mpg can be achieved in normal driving with no change in driving habits. 100 mpg driving the way we really drive is pretty good.
With less than 18 hp and you cannot go typical American speeds.

More than 18 hp would allow you to be able to go faster. You would not notice much in the way of reduced fuel consumption since you have too much horsepower.

Strong demand for streamlined kits? It appears that there is no demand at all. Even among Ecomodders, only one thinks he might buy a nose kit. Read this thread.

If I finish the tooling, I will be happy to sell him or you a nose kit.

By the way... for pricing, I simply double the cost from my fiberglass supplier.

*18 hp is approximate. We are still homing in on the right number

Perhaps your nose mold could be sent to a vacuum former to reduce cost.
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Vacuum forming possibilities
 

Hand laid fiberglass in hand laid fiberglass molds is the cheapest way to make a quality part in small numbers. Like less than a 1000 per year.

http://www.craigvetter.com/Vetter-do...uum-former.jpg
Above is my vacuum former in 1978. I made Windjammer Fairings in it. Vac forming requires new tooling, setup, and many wasted parts before we can get something usable. Then we can make one every 30 seconds. There are no real cost savings until we do it continuously. That is a lot of parts.

So far, maybe one person might buy a nose kit. And that is at the cheapest price possible.

No... vac forming is not our future with streamlined parts. Finishing the fiberglass molds may not be in the future either.

I am learning a lot here. Call it market research.

Thanks

A small scale jobber can't vacuum form over the male plug that you already have?

A small scale vac former cannot beat the price for one hand laid fiberglass part. Too much prep work. So far you are the one that thinks you might buy even one nose.

It is not looking good for me putting more effort into making parts, is i?.

I gave this until Christmas.

do not give up, some people might want one.