Battery Overview

[Bicycle Bob]

I apologize for not finding this in the archives, but they are large. I see that utility-scale lithium batteries are a big success in Australia: > https://tinyurl.com/y379wh8p Since weight is not an issue for such batteries, I don't understand how lead batteries are still standard for car starting and home UPS systems. They seem to be popular for traction batteries, laptops, and power tools. Is there a recent battery chemistry comparison chart around? The automotive engineering magazines are full of news about weight shaving on everything else.

[redpoint5]

In my observation of the automotive industry, they have always been very slow to adopt new technology. When did tape decks stop being standard, like 5 year ago? Cars are barely getting LED indicator lamps even though those colors have existed for decades, and I had built my own replacements in 1999.

That said, lithium based chemistries require more complex management and presents hazards that don't exist with lead acid batteries. They can't be charged below freezing without thermal management. They can't be charged too quickly without thermal management. They can't be overcharged, period.

I'm all about losing the lead acid battery, but but engineering for them is dead simple. How many fires are the result of a lead acid battery accident?

Airlines started incorporating lithium ion based chemistries but had safety issues. Of all the industries trying to reduce weight and volume, it's aerospace.

The holy grail is an energy dense battery that poses near zero risk of catastrophic failure and can operate in a range of conditions. It doesn't exist yet.

[sendler]

Liquid metal battery using non rare elements.
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https://youtu.be/NiRrvxjrJ1U
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[Bicycle Bob]

The rule of thumb used to be that if you replaced ten pounds of lead-acid battery with ten pounds of li-ion battery, you'd get twice the volume, four times the range, and eight times the cost. Any updates on that? Rolls is still advertising their lead batteries for home PV systems as if there's no competition.

[oil pan 4]

For one lead batteries are nearly 100% recyclable by weight.
Lithium starting batteries suffer from cold numbing and they don't like under hood heat.
So if you relocated the battery away from the engine and took it inside on cold nights it would work.

Also if your lithium battery gets drained to say 8 or 9 volts it's going to have its capacity severely damaged.
Some chemistries can't charge below freezing with out damage, others can go lower most shouldn't be charged below 20F, I don't think any of them can charge when colder than around +4F with out permanent capacity damage.

[Bicycle Bob]

Yes, I understand that cars are not very hospitable for lithium chemistries. I'm just wondering how they got chosen for utility scale work, since they cost more per watt-hour quite recently. I am noodling around with an EV concept, so this is car-related.

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by Bicycle Bob

Yes, I understand that cars are not very hospitable for lithium chemistries. I'm just wondering how they got chosen for utility scale work, since they cost more per watt-hour quite recently. I am noodling around with an EV concept, so this is car-related.

For utility work they are very efficient compared to lead acid and they have thermal management built in.
If the lithium batteries are kept properly heated or cooled and the charge cycles are ran just right they should last at least 20 years.
Maybe by then they will be recycled.

[redpoint5]

What is generally accepted as the usable capacity of lead acid batteries so they have an acceptable rate of degradation in applications where they are constantly charged/discharged?

For Lithium based batteries, that could be as much as 80% of the rated capacity.

My point is, perhaps lead acid batteries have an overall cheaper cost per rated Ah of capacity, but considering the useful capacity available to avoid premature wear makes it end up costing more, or at least not enough of a savings to warrant the extra weight and volume.

[Bicycle Bob]

Lead acid batteries can be designed for high amperage or deep discharge for 500 cycles, but not for both. Car starting batteries are poor economy for off-grid use. Nickel-Iron is almost free of degradation, but it weighs twice as much as lead. Jay Leno has a 1908 Baker with the original battery, IIRC.

[Piotrsko]

I believe the original battery is an EDISON nickle alloy cell, noted for their longevity but not huge output or efficiency.