Remember the Tornado? That little piece of foil you stuck instead your car’s intake with the hope of improving your fuel economy? Despite the fact that I still see one from time to time at the local car parts store, I’m thankful to say that this ill-advised craze has passed, for the most part.
However, there seems to be a grassroots revitalization of the tried and true “put some junk in your intake and increase fuel economy 150%” formula for selling these scams. Recently, I noticed one, known as the Gadgetman Groove, has gotten a local NPR reporter to take the bait.
This scam sports all the warning signs of your classic fuel economy scam:
- Claims to work on any vehicle, regardless of fuel type;
- Takes almost no time;
- Increase power, fuel economy, while reducing emissions;
- Is cleverly overlooked by every vehicle manufacturer in every model of vehicle ever made;
- Uses current events (this time, the oil spill) as well as fuel prices in order sell the product;
- Claims scientific proof, but presents none;
- Offers to turn you into a distributor of the product/service.
If you want to know more, don’t hesitate to check out the gadgetman’s site, but please, don’t swallow the medicine on this one. If you need an in depth discussion of these issues, please check out Tony’s Guide. For those of you who don’t want to do the reading, here’s his summary:
So in summary:
- Engines already have high levels of turbulence, and the physics is well understood
- Adding more turbulence can give only a tiny fuel economy benefit – this is proved by experiment
- Ignition must be adjusted to suit the faster burn, or the effect will be worse economy
- Increased turbulence at full load will most likely damage the engine unless the ignition is retarded
- Anything in the inlet manifold is extremely unlikely to affect in-cylinder air motion anyway
Popularity: 47% [?]
{ 31 comments }
I am so tired of people like yourself who spout lies as though they were truth without regard for those that read their words, Benjamin.
How a bout a little research, rather than spreading what amounts to lies about something which you have absolutely no idea?
I tell you what, why don’t you meet me in Mesa Arizona tomorrow morning (the 6th) at Automotive Testing Laboratory. There you can tell Greg Barton all about how much you know about how The Gadgetman Groove doesn’t work.
You are also free to call my 500+ customers liars too, if you dare.
So, go peddle your misinformation like a good little boy and leave the scientific development to those of us willing to subject ourselves to people like you.
My name is Ron Hatton.
I AM Responsible.
Mr. Hatton,
You’re not giving us any actual information, here. All you do is:
1. Invite us to Arizona, in an attempt to conflate my unwillingness to travel to Arizona with your claims being representative of reality;
2. State your number of customers, and their authority on the subject, as if that has anything to do with the viability of your modifications.
You don’t even offer to show the results of said testing; will there be any?
Why don’t we start with your research. You did not address even one of my concerns regarding your original post.
If you are willing to admit failure to properly investigate, I will be more than happy to continue in an honest and open discussion.
I have attended enough parties like this to know a lynching party when I see one…
1) I did not invite you all to Arizona, only you. Also sorely absent in your reply was the fact of this being a National Laboratory.
2) You call all my customers liars when you imply that I am a liar and a cheat. I am neither, nor are they.
3) I believe you to be a highly qualified person, Benjamin. It is such a pity that you would take such a stance against something which you yourself have not even bothered to research. If you had, you would see all the errors in your original offering.
If you are to act as a voice of authority, how about acting with some respect for those who will read your words? They trust you.
Give them Truth.
Ron Hatton
aka
~Gadgetman~
Mr. Hatton,
Did you read the article I linked on another site? That is what I consider to be a good summary of the case against the idea that any device which purports to increase the atomization of fuel could dramatically increase fuel economy.
Whether or not something is a laboratory of any repute does not mean much to me, as good tools can be misused or results misrepresented at the whim of whoever is conducting tests.
Also, I never called, nor intended to call, your customers liars. If one of your customers claims that their “1993 GMC Pick up gets 125% more miles per gallon!” (as you note on your website) I would not hesitate to say that they are misinformed, but I do not mean to imply that there is any deceitful intent behind this claim.
Thank you for that small consideration Benjamin.
I must ask a couple of questions, though.
1) Why is it you deny the fact of duplicate reports coming in from various sources of the effects of The Gadgetman Groove?
You deny any value in a persons testimony, and I believe that is colored by your prejudice. Still, if you were in court and someone testifies on your behalf, is that not considered valid? Moreso if it is in your disfavor?
2) If someone looks you in the eye and tells you what they \experienced, who are you to say they “must be mis-informed”. To what level will you carry your condescension? Are you so well experienced that you know valid from invalid data? Is this not saying that there verbal testimony is held in contempt by you? It does to me.
The very first principle of science is to make an observation. From that you may make deductions, but these deductions are backed up by solid research. This is what I did with The Gadgetman Groove, and what more people would find beneficial, were they to apply some good old elbow grease before coming to, and shouting out, negative statements about others.
Please understand, I do not mean to make you an enemy. Rather, I would have you an ally, for it is obvious that those things in which you believe, you believe passionately. There is great power in passionate friends.
I will state here for the entire world, that I am not perfect. I have made mistakes, and I have applied this technology in ways that did not result in the gains expected. I have applied in all engines made available to me, many at no charge in the interest of gathering the dat-the only thing that matters.
Results.
When a customer calls me thrilled to death with their performance and mileage, the feeling of giving such a gift to a stranger cannot be beat.
So, I am very passionate about my customers. All that contact me will tell you the same thing: that I have treated them all fairly, that I have gone to any length to help, and that I am a man of my word.
They have expressed faith enough to help me prove not just the technology itself, but the applications on which it works best. A tremendous asset for a new technology, wouldn’t you say? To have people believe enough, to have enough faith to trust a stranger?
That faith is what I honor now. I honor it the best way I can: by telling the Truth, and expecting that of others.
God bless you, Benjamin and thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak.
Ron Hatton
Gadgetman
Mr. Hatton,
It doesn’t take much to dismiss your claims when you claim “50% improved”and “doubled gas mileage” based on “more efficient burning.” You’re claiming that, in such cases, 33% and 50% of the fuel in such cases either isn’t being burned at all or is being burned in such a way that it contributes nothing to propulsion. No vehicle using fuel so ineffectively can be fixed by a modification such as yours. If you claimed that “cars driven identically before and after the modification were systematically tested and enjoyed a 5% improvement in fuel economy with a standard deviation of 1.5% and the null hypothesis of ‘no change’ can be rejected at the 95% confidence level” it would be plausible. But to take a car with a 15 gallon tank, you’re claiming that 5 to 7.5 gallons of unburned fuel are being emitted in the cases cited above.
Plausibility fail.
“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” -Shakespeare-Hamlet.
Trust me when I tell you the results I found were far beyond my expectations (and my preference). They were in the “Unbelievable” range.
As to the calculations and the data they were formulated from, all I can say is empirical evidence states that, through the observation of not just isolated, but over 50% of the cases support my hypothesis, on what do you base yours, but information that others passed down to you.
I am learning about my little “Gift from God” every day, Benjamin. Of one thing I am certain: It Works. If you care to, refer me to some of the people in my area. We can discuss the matter and I would be happy to perform the mod for one of them, so long as the pledge of impartiality can be observed.
For me, a valid test is one where all observers agree on the results. When you become an observer, you will see that all is exactly as I have said. Then, you should make your own suppositions and hypotheses as you feel appropriate.
I am sure it will lead you the same way they led me.
Mr. Hatton,
People in typical audiences agree that Uri Geller can bend spoons with his mind. Is that a valid test? A valid test is one that can be measured, documented, and replicated. I would be happy to design such a test for your engine modification but, in order to produce reliable results, it would be quite expensive. Car companies actually have the kind of money it takes to perform such tests. If you do, let me know and I’d be happy to participate. I’d donate my time.
There’s an old saw that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” One thing (perhaps the only thing) on which we’d likely agree is that yours is an extraordinary claim. My background is in mathematics, physics, and engineering. I’ve had enough statistics and experimental design to recognize well designed tests and convincing evidence. Anecdotal evidence from 500 self-selected satisfied customers is not convincing.
I believe that they’d all honestly testify as to the device’s effectiveness. I’m even willing to believe that you are convinced. But your claims need objective data (and in claims as extraordinary as yours, a lot of it) to support them, not anecdotes and testimony. Quoting from the movie “48 hours,” “just because you say it with conviction, it don’t mean s _ _ _ to me.”
The physics of internal combustion engines, thermodynamics, physical chemistry of hydrocarbon combustion, and fluid dynamics (with, of course, the exception to an extent of turbulence) are well understood. Without evidence (reliable, controlled experimental evidence), you are asking people to believe in the automotive equivalent of pixie dust. If you have such evidence, lead the way and I’ll evaluate it with an open mind.
Benjamin,
Not so surprisingly, there’s a link at the “Central Arkansas Alternative Fuels” site (the site you wind up on if you go to the NPR site and look for more information on Gadgetman) to the GEET Engine. I imagine the denizens of Ecomodder will have, at some point or another, run into this scheme. Suffice it to say, while it’s a functional concept, it’s neither earth shattering nor promoted honestly.
Carl Sagan’s famous article, “The Fine Art of Baloney Detection” seems particularly appropriate here. A copy of the article may be found at the link below:
http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/W/Jonathan.D.Wren-1/The%20Fine%20Art%20of%20Baloney%20Detection.htm
I am a tribologist and do daily bizniz with oil and their derivates , read this kind of bulls on a daily basis for 15 years now.
Oil is the most tested discovered and best studied product in this globe.
no small time company can make an common engine run more fuel efficënt on additives in oil or fuel.
No carbuilder wil renew your garantuee if the mechanic finds out you use it.
Any body who used the word God and trust in a commercial conversation is not done. this is science you know
I’m not very technically minded, so I’m going to keep quiet about the science and logic of what has been debated. I just wanted to let everyone who has voiced their opinion know that they’ve made a valuable contribution no matter who actually has truth on their side (though I’m pretty sure there’s a clear right side or wrong side this time around). Even if someone has blatantly misrepresented the facts, they’re still giving others opportunities to dispute them and expose the truth. Good job to everyone – especially Gadgetman for entering the lions den even though it might have been in his and product’s interest to let Ben’s post be. I’d like to show NPR some love too, but the link to this report is no longer functioning. Maybe they are embarrassed by the debate it has sprouted.
After reading Rob’s facts about the Gadgetman Mod, I feel stupid.
Before I had run across his comments: I was too stupid to realize that the Mod did not work, so I had it done on my vehicle. I had my 1993 Ford Aerostar Dyno tested before and after the Mod. I gained Horsepower, Torque, and most importantly my mileage went up from 21 mpg to over 28.
Rob, please accept my appologies for being a stupid Gadgetman customer who got results he is expremely pleased with…
Carroll:
As they might say in Australia, “good on ya, mate.”
My thanks to Carroll for his post. His report of a 33% increase is not at all uncommon.
I am surprised at you still, Benjamin. You ask for valid tests, yet deny the value of testing done at a National Laboratory, the highest authority in the land for developments such as what is under discussion here.
But in your humble opinion, a reputation is not enough, personal experiences duplicated hundreds of times and going to the highest authority I can find is not enough.
“Whether or not something is a laboratory of any repute does not mean much to me, as good tools can be misused or results misrepresented at the whim of whoever is conducting tests.” (see Ben’s second reply)
What will that do for your reputation? I mean, dismissing all evidences that you previously asked me to cite… For me, it only affirms that your position is one of prejudice and bias and one which will not change except under extreme duress.
I will continue to do all in my power to produce a better world, encouraging everyone with good ideas to carry forward.
They will never be slammed and demeaned. Their evidence will be given fair review. I will spend my time, my money and my energy on making this planet a little better for people like you.
Regardless of you being so hard-hearted and stuck in your position that since no one has come up with a viable solution that therefore no one will.
A good mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Ron Hatton
http://www.YouTube.com/GadgetmanGlobal
I have a correction to make regarding the status of Automotive Testing Laboratory as a “National Laboratory”.
They are recognized by the EPA for the tests they perform, but have not earned that status yet.
I apologize for the misinformation.
Ron Hatton
For those at EcoModder that may be interested in Real Fuel Savings:
In personal terms: With the Gadgetman Mod, I use two gallons less fuel whenever I get to travel to see my long distance girlfriend.
In technical terms: The Dyno showed that I got a whopping 28.84% increase in Horsepower, and 31.64% increase in Torque. These figures are an average of three Before Gadgetman Mod and three After Gadgetman Mod tests with all values recorded at 70 mph.
I have seen 30.5 mpg, but I reported 28 because it is my average highway (I live in mountains) mileage. The EPA says my vehicle should be getting 14 mpg City and 21 mpg Highway.
I like 28 mpg alot better than 21!
If high MPG numbers scare you, please do not try the Gadgetman Mod!!!
Glad to see you rallying the troops, Mr. Hatton.
You’ve done a lot of talking about your “National Laboratory” tests, but I’ve seen nothing other than your claims that they were going to happen. The day you had them slated for has long since come and gone, where are the results?
I am in no way “Rallying the troops”, sir. I can assure you this customer found this post on his own. If I were to send out a note to my customers, you couldn’t handle the load of positive comments and I have no doubt the same thing would happen here as has happened in other locations when I did-the whole discussions were erased from the server.
As to my testing, today is “Hump Day” at Automotive Testing Laboratory in Mesa. Yesterday I performed the modification under their watchful eyes, so will have the statement from them as to certifying all that was done was The Gadgetman Groove between tests.
Testing will conclude Thursday and I expect the report on Monday next (the 26th of July).
You and your friends have worked diligently to slander my work knowing nothing of it. I appear here only so that Truth has a voice amongst those who choose to base their opinions on conjecture and theory and in such a negative way.
Without slander, I have presented such as I have. My customers have presented their evidence and testimony and you still do not accept. No amount of testing will convince you, but the tide of affirmations will eventually force you into silence, or to re-think your position.
If you want to get the test results, then you can go to http://www.YouTube.com/GadgetmanGlobal. There you will find an abundance of evidence, which is your choice to accept or decline. It is there I will be releasing the test results, and not here. It is there the people who are truly interested come, and there I will provide what they seek.
Truth.
Ron, aka “Gadgetman”,
I’ve spent a fair amount of time (sadly) at your youtube site. I saw a lots of testimonials, but zero hard data. I’ve been looking forward to seeing your results from ATL since, based at least on a cursory Google research project, they seem reputable, skilled, and unbiased. You’d mentioned that’s where the results would be.
But from your youtube site, I went to your web site where I was able to find what appears to be links to the ATL results and read the following:
Subject: f inal result
Date:T hu, 22 Jul 2010 15:51:09 -0700
From:G regory R. Barton
To: gadgetman @gadgetmantechnologies.com
Ron,
Attached is the spreadsheet of results updated to include today s FTP.
The regulated pollutants ALL increased, fuel economy is up slightly,
but still below baseline level.
The check engine light came on and stayed on during the test – 4
codes were in the computer memory:
#14 – coolant temp high
#32 – EGR
#35 – IAC
#45 – O2 rich
Not the results you were looking for, but further proof that the
Aluminum Falcon is not a suitable test vehicle.
Greg
The actual test results are here.
I applaud your honesty in posting this but I think it’s reasonable to say that my lack of confidence in your claims for the reasons stated in my earlier comments was well-founded. It appears that your emissions were increased and miles per gallon decreased both in the FTP (Federal Test Procedure) and the HFET (Highway Fuel Economy Test) protocols. I assume that the theory will be that it’s a problem with the test bed vehicle, but I’m not expecting to see better results on some other vehicle.
It never ceases to amaze me how selective some people are about the evidence they say they are “evaluating”.
The vehicle for the tests had 270K miles, and was truly worn out. Add to that a truly crappy repair job, being rushed inot the lab without having the opportunity to check the repairs, and you can see why it may have broken down four times in five days of testing.
These are the error codes he was talking about only for the last breakdown.
If you read the whole thing, you will also find Mr. Barton says…”further proof that the Aluminum Falcon is not a suitable test vehicle.” (The “Aluminum Falcon” is the name of the truck.)
Gentlemen, as you are, I am pleased to say the time has come for me to leave these illustrious and challenging environs. Not one of you has risen to accept my offers, nor have you offered more than hostility to a new concept.
The true issue you all seem to face is that you cannot see outside the pitifully large boxes of your intellect. Large, to be sure, but still, they represent constraints on your abilities to embrace new concepts.
So, I will continue doing what I am doing the best way I know how: with complete disregard for those who posture and preen, for in the end, it is not the words that define a person or their life.
It is their deeds.
Good day.
My name is Ron Hatton, and I AM responsible.
It never ceases to amaze me how selective some people are about the evidence they say they are “evaluating”.
The vehicle for the tests had 270K miles, and was truly worn out. Add to that a truly crappy repair job, being rushed into the lab without having the opportunity to check the repairs, and you can see why it may have broken down four times in five days of testing.
These are the error codes he was talking about only for the last breakdown.
If you read the whole thing, you will also find Mr. Barton says…”further proof that the Aluminum Falcon is not a suitable test vehicle.” (The “Aluminum Falcon” is the name of the truck.)
Gentlemen, as you are, I am pleased to say the time has come for me to leave these illustrious and challenging environs. Not one of you has risen to accept my offers, nor have you offered more than hostility to a new concept.
The true issue you all seem to face is that you cannot see outside the pitifully large boxes of your intellect. Large, to be sure, but still, they represent constraints on your abilities to embrace new concepts.
So, I will continue doing what I am doing the best way I know how: with complete disregard for those who posture and preen, for in the end, it is not the words that define a person or their life.
It is their deeds.
Good day.
My name is Ron Hatton, and I AM responsible.
I evaluated the evidence on your web site. I didn’t choose it, you put it there. Other than what you put there, I have no evidence to evaluate. I didn’t design the test protocol, presumably you knew the vehicle and protocol in advance. You seemed quite confident when speaking to the President in your YouTube video.
So show us what other evidence exists.
Sir,
If you had truly evaluated without dismissing the portions you claim to be invalid, then you would be willing to evaluate further.
There is nothing I can say, nor anything anyone else can say that would persuade you to investigate. Therefore, I humbly decline this opportunity to continue in an exercise in futility.
You have determined, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, that what I present is false. You have discounted without review or anything resembling a scientific protocol, the testimonies of many individuals. You have not cited one single iota of scientific evidence that indicates what I have discovered is invalid, yet you continue to maintain the posture (and “posturing” is the correct word) that you are right and I must be wrong because you say so.
You can have your world, my friend.
Mine is filled with hope and promise.
For those who follow your words, I only pray they be aware of your stance of “Deny the evidence if it doesn’t fit your paradigm.”
This is the posturing of a fool.
Good day.
My assumption is that you’re considering the testimonials to constitute evidence. They do not. I watched the video of Kyle (I think that was his name) who believed his gas mileage had increased by 125%, from 12 m.p.g. to 27 m.p.g. Seriously? That implies that previously, with an 18 gallon fill-up, 10 gallons went out the tailpipe unburned. Please.
What I do believe is that you believe it and that many of your followers believe it and it’s less harmful than some other people’s false beliefs, though $500 is a bit steep for snake oil, even if the seller and the buyer believe the snake oil works.
You’re right though, engaging in this debate is fruitless and no fun so good luck to you and your flock. But if you ever post actual objective significant evidence of improvement, let us know and I’ll concede that I was wrong, sing your praises, and have my cars grooved.
To anyone that cares to hear the truth:
I got the groove. Here are the results for my 1996 Chevy Van:
1. Much more horsepower
2. Much better gas mileage
3. Much lower emissions
Say what you will. I don’t care. I got the desired results. I have nothing to prove. I have nothing to add.
Dave, glad to hear you’re pleased and satisfied with the groove. I’m not speaking of satisfaction though, yours or others. I’m speaking of objective evidence.
Rob,
Please enlighten me. Give me your objective evidence that you feel good on sunny days. Lobbing scam, scheme and snake oil bombs before performing your own due diligence only proves your hypocrisy toward objectivity. You, my friend are the one that is not to be believed. Furthermore, if a dump truck of evidence fell on top of you, I am convinced that either you would require more or you wouldn’t recognize it as such. It appears to me that your sole purpose of this now tiresome blog post is to somehow sway public opinion against this technique. Why? Who knows. Perhaps you are fearful that a groove may cut into the profits of whatever it is you are trying to sell.
I am a former police officer, trained in investigations. I have interviewed thousands of witnesses. I myself have been a witness in countless court cases. I am used to high falutin’ attorneys that have tried their best to impeach my testimony. I can hold my own in front of a jury. I do the same in this forum. What has always been amazing to me is that opposing attorneys don’t really care about evidence, or testimony or facts; they care about winning. Rob, it is my opinion that you want to beat Ron no matter the cost. Truth be damned.
My advice to all that read this thread is that you weigh the evidence, testimony and facts as you see them and make your own assessment. Don’t take my word or Rob’s or even Ron’s. From my personal experience, I know how my vehicle has performed for 15 years. I know how it performs after the groove. My vehicle runs better now than before. It’s as simple as that. I make no apologies for not going to the GM proving grounds and producing a 400 page report. The groove works and nothing anyone says will change my mind. I’m not an idiot. I know what I know. I have nothing to gain but I will not sit idly by watching hatchet jobs on reputable people.
Dave,
Let’s set the record straight on several points:
1. My business has zero to with anything even remotely related to the Groove. We are consultants in the construction industry.
2. I don’t question your intelligence or integrity or that of the Gadgetman. In fact, I have no doubt that each of you believes the things you say and are honestly communicating those beliefs. As to intelligence (i.e., not being idiots), I believe this too. Neither of these points is germane to the discussion of what evidence would indicate that the Groove lives up to its claims.
3. If the Groove meets your criteria for a good purchase and installation, great.
4. As a former police officer, I’m sure you’re aware of the huge number of academic studies and the long real-world history of mistaken testimony caused by such key human logical disconnects as confirmation bias, etc. This is why trials and experiments are run.
As I’ve said many times on this (tired, I agree) thread, objective evidence is the key. I don’t claim the device doesn’t improve fuel economy, I only claim that no objective evidence presented so far indicates that it does.
Many claims in the testimony on his site and here are simply impossible. Claims of improvements of, for example, 125% improvement in miles per gallon due to more efficient burning are exactly equivalent to claiming that at least 56% of the fuel going through the engine pre-Groove was not burned (run the numbers yourself). This is patently ridiculous.
When this thread got going, I visited Ron’s site. He had a youtube video of himself talking to the President of ATL, where he was having the Groove tested. He exuded confidence that the results would be spectacular, something the President had never seen. Then, when the results of testing using a protocol known in advance to Ron and a vehicle he’d provided were complete they failed to show improvement, in fact, the opposite. Ron gave many reasons for this: it was an old, tired vehicle with many faults; it was inappropriate for the testing, etc. OK, then why was the protocol agreed to and why was that vehicle used?
As I said, if he claimed that controlled blind testing of identical vehicles under controlled conditions with multiple trials showed that the Groove increased fuel economy by, say, 8% then I would find that credible. Not only that, I’d have it done in my vehicle.
As I further stated up-thread, I’d be happy to assist in the design of such a controlled test and in evaluation of the data, I have expertise in experimental design and data analysis. I’d do it for free. Such a test would not be inexpensive but the results, whatever they showed, would speak for themselves.
Thanks, Rob.
That makes a helluva lot of sense. I was going to get it done, but if it really is true, I should wait until it pokes through to the mainstream in a viral manner, by virtue of its own virtue. I will say on the behalf of the Gadgetman that I read a LONG New York Times magazine article about a guy in India who did a modification VERY similar to the ‘groove’ with remarkable results. He tried for years to get the idea in to Ford, but it was systematically ignored. Article appeared sometime within the last 10 years, strange that there should be such parallels. Regardless, I sincerely hope the truth will be known!!!!
I will get the groove too when I see some systematic, independent, controlled, double-blind evidence, but I trust that might not be soon. Cheers, everyone!
Where is the documented data? Testimonials are not fact, they are beliefs. Has anyone physically measured the fuel’s weight and utilized a devices to show consumption (not applicable to return style fuel systems)? A dyno measure HP and TQ not fuel efficiency. How about an organization with 20 identical vehicles were 10 can be tuned and 10 left stock? Follow those for 60 to 90 days.
One huge Snake Oil Myth out there right now are those resetting keep alive memory (KAM). This claim on fuel economy is only after reconnecting the battery (fueldaddy.com). The PCM has to relearn its fuel trims and timing curves which WILL REVERT back to its original MPG. Does the groove only work after the battery is reconnected? How many customers recalculate on a monthly basis passed the 3 month mark and is it proven gallons consumed vs. mileage driven?
I am not being negative, I’m just looking for the facts. PLEASE, no philosophical bullshit or quotes. Post links or provide documents showing independent studies.
Chuck
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