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Nerys · 11-06-2009, 11:19 AM

As you said, if you had the money you would get lots more battery and motor and etc.

You don't. It's all about getting the most energy out of what you have, though I expect you will come back with "no it isn't" or somesuch oversimplification.

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actually no its not. Energy is not the issue so much as using as little GAS is the issue. I don't care about the EV energy its cheap nearly free. I care about the Gasoline issue.
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A couple questions (hint, there is only one answer)

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hint you don't get to decide that
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Do you agree that you get the most energy out of a given amount of fuel at BSFC peak?

I have no idea what BSFC peak is or means and have seen no reason given by you that I should care.

it sounds to me like BSFC is about squeezing as much "power" out of a given quantity of gasoline as possible.

I have no interest in doing this if it means using MORE FUEL(and getting more POWER as a result) I want lower power not higher power. LESS FUEL

Do you agree that there is an optimal discharge rate for a battery to get the most energy out of it? (unfortunately lower is almost always better) and that you only have $200 of battery to work with currently?

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sure but not really relevant. as long as it has the capacity I need for the job I need the discharge rate is overall irrelevant to me.

Here is what I do know for a pretty damned certain fact. 5 or 6 lead acid batteries are going to "add minimal power" to my car at 55mph for well under 30 minutes before they puke. With the equipment I can afford I actually believe the AMP DRAW on the battery will average HIGHER cruising at 55mph than it will accelerating my car 11-12 or so times.

I also know the FUEL I will save by being able to SHUT my engine off the moment I drop below 35mph and have 100% ZERO fuel usage again until I reach 35mph again will result in far far greater fuel savings than lighting the load on my ICE at 55mph for 25 minutes or so.

that I know for 100% certainty.
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Do you agree that you can typically approximate bsfc peak while accelerating a stick shift? i.e. hold 70% throttle and center shifts @ 3k in your case?

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No idea. Except when I first got it testing it out and playing with it I have never once after that hit 3k in this car. Waste of fuel.
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Do you agree that the load will typically be much less than %70 while cruising, and thus even though you are getting "great mpg", your engine is not extracting the most energy it can out of the fuel?
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I don't care how much energy its extracting out of the fuel if that means I am using MORE OF IT. power is irrelevant if its NOT NEEDED.

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if you say that ideal power extraction is at 70% load then you and I are talking about COMPLETELY different things.

if I can this car souly at 70% load there is no way in hell I would get anywhere near the 46mpg I am getting now. What am I missing here man?
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Still with me?

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not really
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ok, so we have established:

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NO "YOU" have established not me. You have given me nothing in reality that shows I should use any of this. it flies in the face of all fuel savings techniques I know of.

I am very open minded but this means the burden of proof is in your hands.
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1. Your engine DOESN'T need any help at being efficient during acceleration. (cus you know how to accelerate most efficiently)

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I don't want it to be more efficient. I want it OFF during acceleration
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2. Your engine DOES need help at cruise.

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this is where we DISAGREE my engine gets its absolutely BEST fuel economy at cruise. ie your "facts" contradict "reality" as I have experienced it. Please clarify
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3. You have a fairly small amount of electric energy to contribute to your drive on the current budget. If you hope to see the most return at the pump (putting energy back in the car not via the wall outlet) you had better optimize.

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actually no I want to transfer as much energy draw to the OUTLET and AWAY from the pump. I don't care how much E I use since E is dirt cheap compared to gasoline.

Recharging my battery pack will cost me less than 30 cents. half a gallon of gasoline is $1.25
--

So lets say you have 4 trolling batteries already, and they can make 3hp for an hour (just a swag), and your car needs 9hp at cruise, and you cruise for an hour daily. The effect would be like cutting your drag by a third.

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except you ignore the fact that I have no hope of affording a drivetrain capable of pushing my car even partially at such speeds

The damned motor alone is $2000 (versus the slower motor at $450) and then this motor will REQUIRE a higher voltage battery pack which I can not afford and can not FIT in the car (remember carrying FOUR people at all times)
--

Lets say you happen to be around the 3k rpm mark, the first problem you should notice is that reducing load increases bsfc. Well like with an aeromod, you will have to regear (get a trans out of a 1.3 or an xfi) to get your engine load back up to an efficient place (and fully realize your mpg going up by 50% maybe).

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IT IS an Xfi
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FYI, If you glide properly, the extra weight isn't a huge deal on acceleration, just takes you longer to glide to a stop.[/QUOTE]

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duh thats called inertia man. off course the extra weight helps in glide. WHY would you mix glide and acceleration in the same statement to justify each other. the extra weight only hurts you DURING acceleration NOT GLIDE.

Please clarify some of the issues that contradict my understand of what is actually happening.

I am very open minded but if you want to throw out my reality and substitute your own (taking a line from jamie :-) then you need to SHOW ME the error of my ways. ie SHOW ME why what I think is reality is wrong.

what you are asking me to do (assuming I could ever hope to afford what YOU want me to do) seems to fly in the face of everything I know it seems to be the WORST possible use of an electric motor with limit battery power.

HOW can running the engine at a lower load for 25 minutes or so be MORE EFFICIENCY than completly shutting DOWN the engine for 25+ minutes (counting time at lights and coasting with engine off added to the 11-12 minutes of acceleration from the battery pack)

This is completely illogical. the TIME spent is the same except for YOUR 25 minutes the engine is running just at reduced load. for MY 25 minutes the ENGINE IS OFF.

engine off equals unlimited fuel economy. EVEN IF your way got me 100mpg it could not touch UNLIMITED mpg with engine OFF.

Please explain this.

11-06-2009, 11:19 AM	#181 (permalink)
Nerys Grrr :-) Join Date: May 2008 Location: Levittown PA Posts: 800 Cherokee - '88 Jeep Cherokee 90 day: 19.44 mpg (US) Ryo-Ohki - '94 Geo Metro Xfi 90 day: 50.15 mpg (US) Vger 2 - '00 Plymouth Grand Voyager SE Ninja - '89 Geo Tracker 90 day: 30.27 mpg (US) Thanks: 12 Thanked 31 Times in 25 Posts	As you said, if you had the money you would get lots more battery and motor and etc. You don't. It's all about getting the most energy out of what you have, though I expect you will come back with "no it isn't" or somesuch oversimplification. -- actually no its not. Energy is not the issue so much as using as little GAS is the issue. I don't care about the EV energy its cheap nearly free. I care about the Gasoline issue. --- A couple questions (hint, there is only one answer) -- hint you don't get to decide that -- Do you agree that you get the most energy out of a given amount of fuel at BSFC peak? I have no idea what BSFC peak is or means and have seen no reason given by you that I should care. it sounds to me like BSFC is about squeezing as much "power" out of a given quantity of gasoline as possible. I have no interest in doing this if it means using MORE FUEL(and getting more POWER as a result) I want lower power not higher power. LESS FUEL Do you agree that there is an optimal discharge rate for a battery to get the most energy out of it? (unfortunately lower is almost always better) and that you only have $200 of battery to work with currently? -- sure but not really relevant. as long as it has the capacity I need for the job I need the discharge rate is overall irrelevant to me. Here is what I do know for a pretty damned certain fact. 5 or 6 lead acid batteries are going to "add minimal power" to my car at 55mph for well under 30 minutes before they puke. With the equipment I can afford I actually believe the AMP DRAW on the battery will average HIGHER cruising at 55mph than it will accelerating my car 11-12 or so times. I also know the FUEL I will save by being able to SHUT my engine off the moment I drop below 35mph and have 100% ZERO fuel usage again until I reach 35mph again will result in far far greater fuel savings than lighting the load on my ICE at 55mph for 25 minutes or so. that I know for 100% certainty. --- Do you agree that you can typically approximate bsfc peak while accelerating a stick shift? i.e. hold 70% throttle and center shifts @ 3k in your case? -- No idea. Except when I first got it testing it out and playing with it I have never once after that hit 3k in this car. Waste of fuel. -- -- Do you agree that the load will typically be much less than %70 while cruising, and thus even though you are getting "great mpg", your engine is not extracting the most energy it can out of the fuel? -- I don't care how much energy its extracting out of the fuel if that means I am using MORE OF IT. power is irrelevant if its NOT NEEDED. -- if you say that ideal power extraction is at 70% load then you and I are talking about COMPLETELY different things. if I can this car souly at 70% load there is no way in hell I would get anywhere near the 46mpg I am getting now. What am I missing here man? -- Still with me? -- not really -- ok, so we have established: -- NO "YOU" have established not me. You have given me nothing in reality that shows I should use any of this. it flies in the face of all fuel savings techniques I know of. I am very open minded but this means the burden of proof is in your hands. -- 1. Your engine DOESN'T need any help at being efficient during acceleration. (cus you know how to accelerate most efficiently) -- I don't want it to be more efficient. I want it OFF during acceleration -- 2. Your engine DOES need help at cruise. -- this is where we DISAGREE my engine gets its absolutely BEST fuel economy at cruise. ie your "facts" contradict "reality" as I have experienced it. Please clarify -- 3. You have a fairly small amount of electric energy to contribute to your drive on the current budget. If you hope to see the most return at the pump (putting energy back in the car not via the wall outlet) you had better optimize. -- actually no I want to transfer as much energy draw to the OUTLET and AWAY from the pump. I don't care how much E I use since E is dirt cheap compared to gasoline. Recharging my battery pack will cost me less than 30 cents. half a gallon of gasoline is $1.25 -- So lets say you have 4 trolling batteries already, and they can make 3hp for an hour (just a swag), and your car needs 9hp at cruise, and you cruise for an hour daily. The effect would be like cutting your drag by a third. -- except you ignore the fact that I have no hope of affording a drivetrain capable of pushing my car even partially at such speeds The damned motor alone is $2000 (versus the slower motor at $450) and then this motor will REQUIRE a higher voltage battery pack which I can not afford and can not FIT in the car (remember carrying FOUR people at all times) -- Lets say you happen to be around the 3k rpm mark, the first problem you should notice is that reducing load increases bsfc. Well like with an aeromod, you will have to regear (get a trans out of a 1.3 or an xfi) to get your engine load back up to an efficient place (and fully realize your mpg going up by 50% maybe). -- IT IS an Xfi -- FYI, If you glide properly, the extra weight isn't a huge deal on acceleration, just takes you longer to glide to a stop.[/QUOTE] -- duh thats called inertia man. off course the extra weight helps in glide. WHY would you mix glide and acceleration in the same statement to justify each other. the extra weight only hurts you DURING acceleration NOT GLIDE. Please clarify some of the issues that contradict my understand of what is actually happening. I am very open minded but if you want to throw out my reality and substitute your own (taking a line from jamie :-) then you need to SHOW ME the error of my ways. ie SHOW ME why what I think is reality is wrong. what you are asking me to do (assuming I could ever hope to afford what YOU want me to do) seems to fly in the face of everything I know it seems to be the WORST possible use of an electric motor with limit battery power. HOW can running the engine at a lower load for 25 minutes or so be MORE EFFICIENCY than completly shutting DOWN the engine for 25+ minutes (counting time at lights and coasting with engine off added to the 11-12 minutes of acceleration from the battery pack) This is completely illogical. the TIME spent is the same except for YOUR 25 minutes the engine is running just at reduced load. for MY 25 minutes the ENGINE IS OFF. engine off equals unlimited fuel economy. EVEN IF your way got me 100mpg it could not touch UNLIMITED mpg with engine OFF. Please explain this.