Myth Busters SUCKS! (HHO mod, does it work?)

[Nerys]

As you said, if you had the money you would get lots more battery and motor and etc.

You don't. It's all about getting the most energy out of what you have, though I expect you will come back with "no it isn't" or somesuch oversimplification.

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actually no its not. Energy is not the issue so much as using as little GAS is the issue. I don't care about the EV energy its cheap nearly free. I care about the Gasoline issue.
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A couple questions (hint, there is only one answer)

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hint you don't get to decide that
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Do you agree that you get the most energy out of a given amount of fuel at BSFC peak?

I have no idea what BSFC peak is or means and have seen no reason given by you that I should care.

it sounds to me like BSFC is about squeezing as much "power" out of a given quantity of gasoline as possible.

I have no interest in doing this if it means using MORE FUEL(and getting more POWER as a result) I want lower power not higher power. LESS FUEL



Do you agree that there is an optimal discharge rate for a battery to get the most energy out of it? (unfortunately lower is almost always better) and that you only have $200 of battery to work with currently?

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sure but not really relevant. as long as it has the capacity I need for the job I need the discharge rate is overall irrelevant to me.

Here is what I do know for a pretty damned certain fact. 5 or 6 lead acid batteries are going to "add minimal power" to my car at 55mph for well under 30 minutes before they puke. With the equipment I can afford I actually believe the AMP DRAW on the battery will average HIGHER cruising at 55mph than it will accelerating my car 11-12 or so times.

I also know the FUEL I will save by being able to SHUT my engine off the moment I drop below 35mph and have 100% ZERO fuel usage again until I reach 35mph again will result in far far greater fuel savings than lighting the load on my ICE at 55mph for 25 minutes or so.

that I know for 100% certainty.
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Do you agree that you can typically approximate bsfc peak while accelerating a stick shift? i.e. hold 70% throttle and center shifts @ 3k in your case?

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No idea. Except when I first got it testing it out and playing with it I have never once after that hit 3k in this car. Waste of fuel.
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Do you agree that the load will typically be much less than %70 while cruising, and thus even though you are getting "great mpg", your engine is not extracting the most energy it can out of the fuel?
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I don't care how much energy its extracting out of the fuel if that means I am using MORE OF IT. power is irrelevant if its NOT NEEDED.

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if you say that ideal power extraction is at 70% load then you and I are talking about COMPLETELY different things.

if I can this car souly at 70% load there is no way in hell I would get anywhere near the 46mpg I am getting now. What am I missing here man?
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Still with me?

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not really
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ok, so we have established:

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NO "YOU" have established not me. You have given me nothing in reality that shows I should use any of this. it flies in the face of all fuel savings techniques I know of.

I am very open minded but this means the burden of proof is in your hands.
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1. Your engine DOESN'T need any help at being efficient during acceleration. (cus you know how to accelerate most efficiently)

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I don't want it to be more efficient. I want it OFF during acceleration
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2. Your engine DOES need help at cruise.

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this is where we DISAGREE my engine gets its absolutely BEST fuel economy at cruise. ie your "facts" contradict "reality" as I have experienced it. Please clarify
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3. You have a fairly small amount of electric energy to contribute to your drive on the current budget. If you hope to see the most return at the pump (putting energy back in the car not via the wall outlet) you had better optimize.

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actually no I want to transfer as much energy draw to the OUTLET and AWAY from the pump. I don't care how much E I use since E is dirt cheap compared to gasoline.

Recharging my battery pack will cost me less than 30 cents. half a gallon of gasoline is $1.25
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So lets say you have 4 trolling batteries already, and they can make 3hp for an hour (just a swag), and your car needs 9hp at cruise, and you cruise for an hour daily. The effect would be like cutting your drag by a third.

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except you ignore the fact that I have no hope of affording a drivetrain capable of pushing my car even partially at such speeds

The damned motor alone is $2000 (versus the slower motor at $450) and then this motor will REQUIRE a higher voltage battery pack which I can not afford and can not FIT in the car (remember carrying FOUR people at all times)
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Lets say you happen to be around the 3k rpm mark, the first problem you should notice is that reducing load increases bsfc. Well like with an aeromod, you will have to regear (get a trans out of a 1.3 or an xfi) to get your engine load back up to an efficient place (and fully realize your mpg going up by 50% maybe).

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IT IS an Xfi
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FYI, If you glide properly, the extra weight isn't a huge deal on acceleration, just takes you longer to glide to a stop.[/QUOTE]

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duh thats called inertia man. off course the extra weight helps in glide. WHY would you mix glide and acceleration in the same statement to justify each other. the extra weight only hurts you DURING acceleration NOT GLIDE.

Please clarify some of the issues that contradict my understand of what is actually happening.

I am very open minded but if you want to throw out my reality and substitute your own (taking a line from jamie :-) then you need to SHOW ME the error of my ways. ie SHOW ME why what I think is reality is wrong.

what you are asking me to do (assuming I could ever hope to afford what YOU want me to do) seems to fly in the face of everything I know it seems to be the WORST possible use of an electric motor with limit battery power.

HOW can running the engine at a lower load for 25 minutes or so be MORE EFFICIENCY than completly shutting DOWN the engine for 25+ minutes (counting time at lights and coasting with engine off added to the 11-12 minutes of acceleration from the battery pack)

This is completely illogical. the TIME spent is the same except for YOUR 25 minutes the engine is running just at reduced load. for MY 25 minutes the ENGINE IS OFF.

engine off equals unlimited fuel economy. EVEN IF your way got me 100mpg it could not touch UNLIMITED mpg with engine OFF.

Please explain this.

[dcb]

putting Nerys on ignore till he does his homework.

[Nerys]

Nerys.

Maybe you should consider investing your time, which you can afford, in learning the hypermiling techniques of those on this forum who drive the same car you have.

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I have been "hypermiling" long before it was called hypermiling. I drive 40,000 miles a year. 110 mile commute round trip plus "other" miles averaging 140 miles a day. I learned a long time ago the importance of fuel economy. I am always open to learning more and new things to help which is one of the reasons I LOVE this site!

I have a jeep cherokee with 493,000 miles on it and I put all but 92,000 of those miles on it. I could get 24-25mpg on the highway with my baby and that is with 31" meats RS9000 all around 4" lift and full skid plating and tire on the roof (the 31 does not fit inside the hatch)

On my daily commute with 3-4 people in the car ALWAYS I average 22mpg for 10 years. Then E10 came and its been nothing but a nightmare.
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I am averaging 50 MPG in my Echo which is rated at 32 combined.

Your car is averaging 43 MPG. The combined EPA for your car is 46 MPG.

NO my car is averaging 46mpg. I am going to FIX that by deleting my first tank which is the tank when I FIRST bought the car and it has MANY mechanical issues which brings my average down. and thats with nearly city style driving route carrying 4 people ALWAYS massing 1087 pounds OK tomorrow it will be 1084 pounds (I lost a few more pounds) and about 200-250 pounds of my tools and gear in the boot.

for a car that DOES still have a few issues (working them out) and carries 1300 pounds of mass around on top of its 1600pound curb weight I think 46mpg is pretty damned good.

I am hoping to get 50mpg UNDER those conditions!
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I am averaging 65 MPG in my Insight. The current EPA combined is 47 MPG, just 1 MPG better than your Metro.

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which is why I think hybrids are a rip off. I did the math on a prius. assuming it NEVER BROKE DOWN EVER it would take 68 years for me to make ONE DOLLAR in gas savings and thats me driving 40,000 miles a year! no thanks
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Driving your car the same way I drive mine 60 MPG should be fairly easy to achieve, as long as everything is is good shape on your car.

shove 1300 pounds into your Insight and see what you get :-) its a 2 seater right? (don't get me wrong I DROOL over the insight I think its a gorgeous car! and your only average 5mpg over what the car can REGULARLY achieve with even slight consideration to driving style I know several insight owners who net 60mpg without even trying hard)

also my metro cost me $1100 including the parts I put into it tag registration tax everything. What did your insight cost? (remember I LOVE that car its not just usable for me and even if it was WELL WELL outside of my financial means)
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I think most of us here do understand the ways to maximise the efficiency of our cars, and when the engine is most efficient. That is why we use pulse and glide as well as many other tactics, especially DFCO and situational awareness (in my case) to extract every foot of distance travelled for every drop of fuel consumed.

Your goal of 60 MPG is totally achievable without any additional expense of capital, if you carefully study the proven techniques and apply them to your situation. The only reason you should not be getting 60 MPG is is you live in an area where you have to climb steep grades in your normal driving situation.

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I am fortunate to not have steep grades but I do have a few very long gradual grades which take there toll

I am limited in just "how far" I can go with hyper techs by the traffic around me. IE quick way to get into trouble. I used to be able to do a little more extreme when I was working nights IE the roads on the way home at 4am are not empty but pretty close to it sometimes.

Now I work days and the roads are pretty packed both ways. Pulse and glide would get me SHOT and I am not joking about that. 90% of my route is single lane with little bits of passing lane here and there.
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If your trips are very short, then you might consider a block heater to reduce the high fuel consumption on cold starts.

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if my trip is short I walk :-) pop asked why I walked to 7-11 to get his milk he asked for. I said cause I am not wasting gasoline driving 3 blocks :-)
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No engine is highly efficient at cruising speeds, because it is barely doing any more work than it would if you just ran it at the same RPM with no load.

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I am confused but isn't that the point? to reduce load as much as humanly possible and reduce the RPM to as low a point as possible?
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My Insight shuts off when you are not moving, and uses the battery to boost the engines power on acceleration. The return on battery energy regeneration is about 30%, so I try to avoid all situations where I would encounter regeneration.

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does not shutting off when not moving and using the battery to boost acceleration provide the MOST benefit to your fuel economy?

ie if electric boost was more efficient why does your insignt not do that?
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Light timing, avoiding any brake use, maximising DFCO, which means using no fuel slowing down when you must stop (for any reason) and maybe even shutting the engine off at those 3 minute lights (none that long here) will achieve your goals without having to redesign your car, and it doesn't cost you a dime.

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I will have to video tape my route one day if I can figure out home to compress it. I kid you not I must pass 12-15 cops on my 54mile commute. I am simply not going to find out what they have to say about me shutting off my engine coasting and rebooting it at each light. (it seems in the last few years they are littering the highways with cops)

now if I have an electric motor to take off from the light and restart at SPEED thats different. Thats "hybrid" thats not sitting at a light cranking the engine drawing attention.

and god help me if I take more than a few seconds to get off that light The ANGER that would build in the cars behind me....

ANY time I hit a hill that will let me coast for more than 20-25 seconds I try to turn off the engine when I go over the bridge if there is no real traffic on the other engine I will come down the other side engine off and use the clutch to restart the engine so its not so noticeable what I am doing (a clutch restart on my xfi is seriously quite and smooth)

any time I pull into a parking lot of am approaching a parking lot of the traffic conditions permit I shut it down as soon as possible and coast all the way into my spot. I try to park on inclines so I can reverse out of the spot engine off and THEN start the engine and go forward.

if its level I park "through" so I can pull out without reverse when I leave. this is pretty easy I just park farther from the store I need the excersize anyway.

with my PREVIOUS cars a lot of this engine off was not possible. The jeep and van just do not COAST far enough to make a difference and there auto trans might get upset by this practice. The metro is a different story. all kinds of possibilities opened up to me once I got this car and I plan to use them :-)
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You have one of the best hypermiling cars around. Don't take this the wrong way, but wouldn't it be a lot easier to just emulate the tactics of those here who freely offer their techniques to others so we all can minimise our consumption.

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ABSOLUTELY! I have been and I am incorporating as much if it as I can into my driving. but I WANT MORE than that. I would love to get my fuel usage to work down to 1 gallon of gas instead of 2 (round trip)

I think hypermiling is amazing but I don't think its going to get me 100mpg with 1300 pounds in my little metro. so I want to go even further. Very limited by budget but for small things thats nothing that TIME can't fix saving up.

HELL if my other 7 cars are any indication I bet I would get 51-52mpg RIGHT NOW with my metro if I could actually buy real gasoline which seems all put impossible around here.

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Instead of arguing with others here I would suggest you forget any assumptions about their understanding of engine efficiency and instead studying their proven techniques.
Relax and absorb the vast amount of empirical data that proves beyond any doubt that they indeed understand completely the limitations of their individual vehicles in every respect.

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I agree but I am also a thinking sentient free willed human being. If someone tells me the sky is red while My eyes are seeing blue well I am not just going to take their word for it. They have to SHOW me the error of my ways and not just because they say so.

if I am wrong GREAT show me and I WILL CHANGE if possible. but when my reality contracts someone elses suggestions well I need more than just a word.
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The end result will be your goals are achieved and in doing so you will better understand what is really wrong with the ways cars are designed. Maybe some day that knowledge will lead everyone on this planet to demand better designs which incorporate efficiency into the vehicle itself and relieve the driver of the work load necessary due to the poor designs.

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Just give me my battery electric car and I won't give a damn about efficiency. with a $1000 nano solar panel I would never pay a penny for fuel to drive my car every again
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I am still curious how lowering the load on my engine for 25minutes can result in better fuel economy than TURNING MY ENGINE OFF for 20+ minutes?

My way turns the engine OFF for 20+ minutes his way ONLY reduces my engine load at speed for 25 minutes or so.

if I am wrong if his way REALLY WILL result in better fuel economy well 2 things happens.

First it won't matter because I CAN NOT afford a 55mph drivetrain anytime in the next decade.

#2 I will conceded if you can show me HOW this can happen. I would have to average some 200mpg during that 25minutes in order for it to result in a greater savings than turning the engine off? (thats an out of my butt guess but I think it would have to be even higher than 200mpg) I am a bit tired to try and figure out the math on that just now ;-)

[Nerys]

Originally Posted by dcb

FYI, I just looked at Nerys metro page Details: Ryo-Oki - 1994 Geo Metro Xfi Fuel Economy - EcoModder.com

he/she (its HE) does claim to schlep 1300 lbs around (4 people and some gear), so definite kudos for being efficient in that regard (and already owns an xfi).

But it is a good point. Nerys, it would be good to have a baseline though, do you always have 1300lbs of payload? or do you know what average mpg you get with just a driver and no gear? If you are using good technique and can't beat 45mpg in an xfi by a wide margin then you may very well have some mechanical issues.

The insight is a good example of a mild hybrid, and has lean burn provisions for cruise. I'm sure the power management could be improved upon with some human intervention though, and a bit of wall plug.

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YES 100% of my driving is with 4 people in the car and my gear so I always have 1300 pounds in the car (well I hope that will be 250 pounds less by next summer as my sister and i lose weight)

I am 376 pounds (was 418 6 weeks ago) My sister is 316 My brother is 221 and the 4th person is 165 pounds

Thats 1078 pounds in people plus out clothing. NEVER underestimate the mass of the clothing of 300 pound people :-) figure another 20 pounds.

add in 200-250 pounds of gear. Once the car is reliable I will reduce this by 100 pound by leaving most of my tools at home.

so roughly 1348 pounds in the car now each time I go out.

I don't think even 10% of my weekly tank is just me alone. I tend to combine trips and destinations to minimize driving alone since it wastes fuel. Sometimes I will drive with just 2 or 3 people but again this is short little trips to the store or to a meeting or something like that ie a VERY small fraction of my overall driving.

YES its a VERY VERY tight fit and not the most comfortable but I told everyone as long as I have to pay for my fuel its going to be the metro or nothing. If they all want to chip in $8 a pop we will take the van. I have had no takers yet. (it takes $24 in gasoline to take the van round trip) It only gets 15mpg I used to get 19mpg but that was pre E10. The metro takes less than $6 in gasoline to do the same thing.

This metro has already saved me $250 in gas which is a good thing since I make LESS now than I did 2 months ago and LITERALLY could not afford to drive the van to work today. Just don't have the money.

also I believe the car DOES have some mechanical issues. I got most of them. Rear cylinders both control arms new rims and nuts (they were BAD)

Ripped apart the EGR and cleaned is out WOW what a difference in idle and 5mpg boost on fuel economy! (well I did the control arms at the same time so they might have helped a little but I can't imagine much plus I did a full tune up changed EVERYTHING)

Its still a little rough on idle. I am not sure what is NORMAL for this car. I have never had nor never been in a metro before. I have no idea of this idle is normal. seems VERY slow to me but it never tries to stall. Compression is good though 175-175-170 so I am confident I have a good tight motor just got to track down any little gremlins that are left.

the stick no longer waggles at idle like it did when I got it but it still vibes enough that the mufflers sometimes moves enough to tap the tire cavity. (the rubber hangers are a bit stretched too so I am going to replace all of them)

I am still working on the car. its MUCH MUCH smoother now than when I got it. Still need to get a new radiator but the stop leak is holding for now. I want to take care of that before winter sets in so hopefully in the next 2 weeks I will flush it and replace the radiator.

I am usually free on sunday's if I have an extra $30 one day maybe I will take the merto out on the turnpike and just go 200 miles west and then turn around and come back with no gear and JUST me in the car. See what I get but at 50mpg roughly thats going to take a while :-) ie at least 7 hours of driving. At least I will only burn 8 or 9 gallons of fuel doing it. We shall see if i have the time to do it. 7+ hours $20 in gas and $10-$15 in tolls is a lot of cash and time just to "see" what I get alone though. I will see how I feel each sunday if I am up to it or not. Not this sunday though don't have the cash needed for that.

[Christ]

I'm so not reading all that. Good luck w/ the project.

[user removed]

If you are hauling 4 people in a Metro, then each person is getting 4X43 MPG individually or 172 MPG per person.

I can't do that in either of my cars, although in the Echo I have averaged close to 50 with 4 fairly large men in the car (about 800 pounds).

I didn't know a Metro could haul that much weight! All the more reason to not add any more weight to that poor car . Been messing with cars for 40 years and I just learned something new.

My hat is off to you Nerys, for being one of the most efficient people movers on this planet.

dcb;

My Insight does not have lean burn, because it is an auto (CVT), but it is a SULEV.

regards
Mech

[Frank Lee]

Nerys, Nerys, Nerys...

[Nerys]

I "wanted" a diesel a VW diesel. 99% of the time they are simply not within my means financially. One time I had a chance to get a VW diesel pickup alas it could only take 3 people (and tightly) so I could not get it. Metro was next. Near diesel economy (although no ability to make "bio" fuel for it like diesels) but it could hold 4 people (I actually shoe horned 5 people in it once and it took it well. about the same mass (lighter people in the back) but still wow that was a tight fit. Just to the mall though they all had there own rides home.

Got a new shift knob for it tonight. I was getting tired of touching the slimy sticky one that came with it. I am conjuring images of 15 years of nasty sweaty palms :-) yuck. much better now and a lot taller which is much better for me.

Also got the new stereo installed and replaced 2 of the speakers (got to replace the other 2 as well) just simply 4" replacements no upgrades not needed. Got a wicked neat stereo at walmart for $40 ! no cd just radio SD USB and Line in. All that I need :-) Very impressed with it considering it was $40. if it holds up well I am going to try to get 1 or 2 more to keep on hand for other cars as the radio's die etc..

[aerohead]

Was this thread about burning hydrogen in an Otto cycle engine? And is anyone going to post the scientific data associated with burning hydrogen as a fuel,and the complete energy balance to produce the hydrogen utilizing various technologies?
Bye the way,I've got Zanax if anyone needs one.

[NiHaoMike]

YES 100% of my driving is with 4 people in the car and my gear so I always have 1300 pounds in the car (well I hope that will be 250 pounds less by next summer as my sister and i lose weight)

250lb of fat is almost 1200kWh! Don't you think it's ironic to have all that energy sitting around wasting fuel?

My sister is 316

Is she Jean Ma?