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Old 11-22-2009, 06:28 PM   #66 (permalink)
bwilson4web
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Hi,

Discussing subjective things aren't really going to change our minds. It may be important to some but they are just as likely to be a yawn. Yet to some folks subjective things are major issues. But there are some comments that are objectively verifiable facts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morescratch View Post
1. ...
2. BETTER real world highway mileage
3. MORE storage space (for the wagon at least)
4. ...
5. ...
6. a safer car
7. ... unresolved issues with batteries (heavy metals, recycling, etc...)
8. a car that doesn't need batteries in 10 years
9. ...
10. ...
"BETTER real world highway mileage"

I've found these head-to-head mileage test results:

The latest, 1.8L Prius seems to be quite competitive with the Jetta TDI. The earlier 1.5L Prius had a distinct mileage fall-off above 65 mph. BTW, some of us also spend a lot of time driving in urban areas ... where the Prius does pretty good.

"MORE storage space (for the wagon at least)"

Prius is in the family sedan sized vehicle because of the passenger and luggage space, 116 ft.{3}, larger than the Jetta TDI sedan, 107 ft.{3} which is in the compact car group. The Prius is not in the small wagon group as is the Jetta TDI wagon, 125 ft.{3}. These are three distinct vehicle groups.

Understand that I have nothing against the Jetta TDI as I sat in one and found it a nice, compact car. My only problem was the door jam blocked the view over the left shoulder.

"a safer car"

Source? The reason I ask is the NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) listed the Prius as the second least expensive car insurance cost in the family sedans in early 2009. Also, I ran the fatality numbers for Prius from 2000-2007 and the rate is half the NHTSA reported rates.

BTW, August 2009 the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety:
Quote:
August 13, 2009: 3 small cars earn Top Safety Pick award
The 2010 Honda Insight, 2010 Kia Soul, and 2010 Toyota Prius are the Institute's newest Top Safety Pick award winners.
Last week the IIHS changed their test and has not retested the Prius. Regardless, it looks like it did OK in the August test.

So we have "Top Safety Pick award" in August 13, 2009 and half the fatal accident rate 2000-2007 compared to USA fleet data. I don't know where the Jetta TDI stands but I see no problem with Prius safety.

"... unresolved issues with batteries (heavy metals, recycling, etc...)"

These are resolved as Toyota pays a $200 bounty on recycling of worn battery packs. I've also played with these batteries and I find them no big deal.

The traction battery is different but nothing all that frightening. In fact, compared to the 12 VDC lead acid battery, I would much rather deal with failed traction batteries. The nickel, cobalt and other materials are relatively not toxic compared to lead and have high resale price in the used metal market.

"a car that doesn't need batteries in 10 years"

Most of the 12 VDC auxillary batteries are lasting about 4-6 years. These are the lead-acid ones.

Toyota reports the traction batteries in the NHW11, 2001-03, had a 1% failure rate. The USA salvage rate is about 3% per year due to accidents and other failures. So far, it looks like the crashed, NHW11 Prius have provided enough spare traction batteries to keep the price in the $500-$1,000 range.

Toyota redesigned the battery module case in 2004 (see earlier link) and the number of NHW20 traction battery failures they reported in 2008 was less than 50 out of nearly 600,000 Prius sold.

The best way to understand the traction battery is as part of the transmission since that is where it really does its work. Since 2004 the reliability has been so high that we've only seen one NHW20 (2004-09) transaxle failure and no significant count of NHW20 traction battery failures in the user forums. Better still, Toyota has dropped the traction battery price to just under $2,400.

Bob Wilson
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2019 Tesla Model 3 Std. Range Plus - 215 mi EV
2017 BMW i3-REx - 106 mi EV, 88 mi mid-grade
Retired engineer, Huntsville, AL

Last edited by bwilson4web; 11-22-2009 at 10:35 PM..
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