Prius VS. TDI (which to buy)

[Morescratch]

1. better handling
2. BETTER real world highway mileage
3. MORE storage space (for the wagon at least)
4. no rat fur on the ceiling... yuck
5. subjective: a better looking car
6. a safer car
7. a total environmental impact that is much, much, much less due to as yet unresolved issues with batteries (heavy metals, recycling, etc...)
8. a car that doesn't need batteries in 10 years
9. you look like someone who has done their homework
10. a car you will actually enjoy driving

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

From Fuel Economy

City/Hwy (combined) - make model year, user count and MPG, cost/gal
48/45 (46) - Toyota Prius 2008, 102 users report 46.3 MPG, $1.93/gal
30/41 (34) - Volkswagon TDI Jetta 2009, 8 users report 40.5, $2.22/gal
30/37 (33) - Volkswagon TDI Jetta 2006, 65 users report 42.6, $2.22/gal

So with the Jetta TDI I get:

1. more expensive diesel fuel and less common
2. lower highway mileage, 41 < 45
3. much lower city mileage, 30 << 48
4. 'Compact car' instead of 'Midsize car'
5. must be manual for these mileage numbers
6. $22,270 MSRP (Edmunds) vs. $22,000 MSRP (Toyota)

Of course other folks have different requirements and there are of course those who are involved in various stunts:

109.3 MPG Prius August 2005
There is the Japanese 1,000 mile tank club with over 200 members.

I don't approve of 'stunts' since it leads to a lot of foolish claims not easily replicated by others. Stunts eliminate engineering practices and appeal to other values but I also understand 'bling.'

Bob Wilson

ps. Did I mention this is the NHW20 model. The 2010 Prius has even better mileage, more space, and better performance.

[Morescratch]

Wow, and somehow we are supposed to believe that you have intelligence??? 268K miles and still going on my TDI. No issues whatsoever other than all those damn Mazda's slowing me down on the mountain passes... pathetic post, you should be ashamed.

Originally Posted by almightybmw

VW must be using a pure sh_t turbo. My parents old 1988 Mazda 626 GT is still on the stock turbo with 210K miles, motor never rebuild. 3 radiators yes (plastic endtanks suck), but no other motor work done. IHI RHB5 VJ11 was the turbo. Water and oil cooled.

If VW uses such crap turbos on the TDI's, I'm inclined to remove it and replace it with a better known reliable turbo. No reason to replace failing components with another one that'll fail in the same time period. Upgrade to something more reliable instead of wasting money on maintenance.

[ton]

Originally Posted by tasdrouille

I would advise against running veggie in a TDI, especially the newer ones >03. Unless you're very anal about it, you WILL end up with very costly repairs. Go with biodiesel instead, much safer.

$750 must be for a rebuilt turbo, else you have to tell me where you get them! You have to add labor to that, roughly 3 hours. You can even do it yourself if you are mechanically inclined, there are very good howtos on tdiclub.com.

If you drive the car hard now and then, to make sure the vanes do not stick with soot the turbo should last for a very long time.

Pretty often the turbo is replaced when it did not really needed to. If your vanes are sticky your might just need to have it disassembled and cleaned, a 5 hours job. Still less expensive than a new turbo. Oftentimes the vacuum actuator fails, if you go to the dealership they'll replace the whole turbo unit, as the actuator alone is not a part they have. However, vacuum actuators can be bought aftermarket for roughly $100.

Injection pumps failed en masse when usld was introduced. Lubrication packages in the fuel have improved since and you don't hear much about those failing anymore. If you're still worried you just add a bit of ashless 2 cycle oil, or even better 2% biodiesel, and your pump won't fail.

Please spell ulsd correctly.

[ton]

Originally Posted by tasdrouille

Mostly highway, hilly, you want the TDI.

TDI's are great on hills without sharp harpin curves.

[dremd]

Originally Posted by Morescratch

You are spreading disinformation. VW is topping the quality and reliability lists. Yes, they used to have problems but so did Toyota and Honda. Toyota used to build the worst cars and now build some of the best. Honda built the most dangerous car ever sold in America and now builds some of the safest. VW used to build some of the most unreliable cars but now build some of the most reliable. You are doing this forum a disservice and insult the intelligence of the readership by spreading such nonsensical information. Timing belt problems with VW's??? VW's use timing chains... Diesel pumps almost never fail... We aren't interested in your personal biases and/or opinions unless they are based on fact. Plus, your assessment that our neighbours to the south can't build good cars is borderline racist and most definitely based on opinion rather than fact. A disappointing post.

As a TDI owner I'm going to have to disagree.
As far as number of issues goes the TDI looses over every Toyota I've ever owned.

Toyotas I've owned

91 Celica

Still own 186,000 miles purchased at 90,000 miles
Failures
Brake master cylinder (leaked)
Assorted Light bulbs
Starter (stuck)
1 battery replacement.
Tape Deck failed
Occasional oil changes (my sister drives it now)

Terrible things that have happened to it
5sfte Ran 30k on an oil change, had < 1 quart when drained
ran with no coolant (wreck) until the engine seized when I showed up a breaker bar couldn't budge it and the temp gauge was still pegged. Let it cool down overnight and fired right up

91 Camry
300,000 + (Failed VSS) took possession at 100,000
Repairs
Leaky front main
VSS failed
Shattered Air box


87 Supra
97,000 - 210,000
Motor Swap after having a hole punched in oil cooler
*Very* modified
Headgasket 7m head bolt torque issue Totally Toyotas fault
Too many electrical issues to name, but that was mostly my fault for being a dumb teenager with lots of extras wired in, the rest being the my fault for allowing the car to flood.


89 Supra 64,000- 194,000
Headgasket
heavily modified, spent lots of time at track, no other failures
That's it

91 Supra for sale BPU
154,000- 165,000
No Mechanical issues at all had MHG before I got it though, just needed paint


93 Supra for sale BPU ++
154,000 - 180,000 for sale
Turbos replaced (smoked very bad on purchase)
Power steering hose leak
Lives life mainly on the track


2002 Golf
159,000 - 205,000 miles (still have it, not for sale)
Glove box is garbage, replaced once, broke again
Center console latch failed
Lower dash crumbled
Drains battery for no apparent reason (need to trouble shoot)
Seat heaters failed (temp sensor has crap wiring)
Door Locks failed (cold solder joints)
power Window retainers (can't remember name) Failed
Drivers power window switch failed
Cruise switch Failed
Front main seal leak
Glow plug harness failed
battery box broken (probably previous owner)
Burns out headlight bulbs at alarming rate (yearly)
Dash light dimmer failed
driver seal belt latch failed
Tape deck failed
Antenna rubber fell off
Headliner fell off
Strut mounts failed
Rear control arm bushings failed
2 struts failed
1 CV joint boot failed
Rear suspension mounts failing
Master Cylinder failed
MAF Failed



But after listing all of that, I'm selling all of my Toyotas and keeping My TDI. But is definitely the lowest quality vehicle I've ever owned. I am aware that my sample size is small, but go to a Prius site and you see lighting threads, go to TDI club and you will see lots of mechanical issue threads.

[bwilson4web]

Hi,

Discussing subjective things aren't really going to change our minds. It may be important to some but they are just as likely to be a yawn. Yet to some folks subjective things are major issues. But there are some comments that are objectively verifiable facts:

Originally Posted by Morescratch

1. ...
2. BETTER real world highway mileage
3. MORE storage space (for the wagon at least)
4. ...
5. ...
6. a safer car
7. ... unresolved issues with batteries (heavy metals, recycling, etc...)
8. a car that doesn't need batteries in 10 years
9. ...
10. ...

"BETTER real world highway mileage"

I've found these head-to-head mileage test results:

The latest, 1.8L Prius seems to be quite competitive with the Jetta TDI. The earlier 1.5L Prius had a distinct mileage fall-off above 65 mph. BTW, some of us also spend a lot of time driving in urban areas ... where the Prius does pretty good.

"MORE storage space (for the wagon at least)"

Prius is in the family sedan sized vehicle because of the passenger and luggage space, 116 ft.{3}, larger than the Jetta TDI sedan, 107 ft.{3} which is in the compact car group. The Prius is not in the small wagon group as is the Jetta TDI wagon, 125 ft.{3}. These are three distinct vehicle groups.

Understand that I have nothing against the Jetta TDI as I sat in one and found it a nice, compact car. My only problem was the door jam blocked the view over the left shoulder.

"a safer car"

Source? The reason I ask is the NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) listed the Prius as the second least expensive car insurance cost in the family sedans in early 2009. Also, I ran the fatality numbers for Prius from 2000-2007 and the rate is half the NHTSA reported rates.

BTW, August 2009 the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety:

August 13, 2009: 3 small cars earn Top Safety Pick award
The 2010 Honda Insight, 2010 Kia Soul, and 2010 Toyota Prius are the Institute's newest Top Safety Pick award winners.

Last week the IIHS changed their test and has not retested the Prius. Regardless, it looks like it did OK in the August test.

So we have "Top Safety Pick award" in August 13, 2009 and half the fatal accident rate 2000-2007 compared to USA fleet data. I don't know where the Jetta TDI stands but I see no problem with Prius safety.

"... unresolved issues with batteries (heavy metals, recycling, etc...)"

These are resolved as Toyota pays a $200 bounty on recycling of worn battery packs. I've also played with these batteries and I find them no big deal.

The traction battery is different but nothing all that frightening. In fact, compared to the 12 VDC lead acid battery, I would much rather deal with failed traction batteries. The nickel, cobalt and other materials are relatively not toxic compared to lead and have high resale price in the used metal market.

"a car that doesn't need batteries in 10 years"

Most of the 12 VDC auxillary batteries are lasting about 4-6 years. These are the lead-acid ones.

Toyota reports the traction batteries in the NHW11, 2001-03, had a 1% failure rate. The USA salvage rate is about 3% per year due to accidents and other failures. So far, it looks like the crashed, NHW11 Prius have provided enough spare traction batteries to keep the price in the $500-$1,000 range.

Toyota redesigned the battery module case in 2004 (see earlier link) and the number of NHW20 traction battery failures they reported in 2008 was less than 50 out of nearly 600,000 Prius sold.

The best way to understand the traction battery is as part of the transmission since that is where it really does its work. Since 2004 the reliability has been so high that we've only seen one NHW20 (2004-09) transaxle failure and no significant count of NHW20 traction battery failures in the user forums. Better still, Toyota has dropped the traction battery price to just under $2,400.

Bob Wilson

[tasdrouille]

Originally Posted by ton

Please spell ulsd correctly.

Hi ton, welcome to eocmodder! Great first post btw.

Originally Posted by Morescratch

Timing belt problems with VW's??? VW's use timing chains... Diesel pumps almost never fail...

The most common TDI engines here use belts, which is a very good thing. Timing chains on VW engines, like in the Passat B5 serie TDI don't last forever and cost way more to replace then having to change a belt every 100k miles.

Rotary injection pumps are a common failure point with TDIs. A lot of people also have leaks at the pump. PD engines do not have injection pumps, but the lift pumps sometimes fail (which will leave you stranded on the side of the road), and they often show early cam wear compared to previous TDI engines.

I'm gonna have to agree with dremd. TDIs often have issues. But to me it's generally just small annoyances that are well worth it when you consider the economy, the torque and the general pleasure to drive such a car.

[some_other_dave]

Originally Posted by Morescratch

...Honda built the most dangerous car ever sold in America...

Sorry to thread-jack for a moment, but what car is that?

-soD

[Silveredwings]

Originally Posted by dremd

As a TDI owner I'm going to have to disagree.
As far as number of issues goes the TDI looses over every Toyota I've ever owned.

+1

I've had 4 Toyotas, 1 Mazda, and 3 BMWs. I've worked on others cars in the family (3 Toyotas, 1 Mazda, 2 Hondas, 1 BMW & 2 VWs) My experience is that the Japanese cars lead the pack in reliability.

I also owned a '97 Passat VR6 wagon. I really liked that car, but things on it frequently broke, usually because something was made of plastic (or the wrong grade of plastic).

A few examples:

• shift linkage (left me stranded)
• coil-pack ($360 to replace with the same defective part from VW)
• door wiring harnesses (>$200 to replace each with the same defective part from VW)
• window regulators
• water pump (had to pull engine to replace)
• belt tensioner pulley (disintegrated)
• coolant pressure tank
• headlight cataracts
• etc.

Today I drive another marque, but still have 1 Honda and 1 VW in the driveway. In my opinion, you need to be prepared for more repairs with VWs.

[COcyclist]

Update on the TDI. I still love this car. I do mostly highway driving and it is a ball to drive. I have had better repair luck than some who have posted here. I have 60,000 miles now and have only had a couple of minor issues that were covered under warranty at the dealership. There was an EGR leak (under warranty), a glow plug recall and the dealer replaced the glow plug harness as a courtesy at the same time. I broke a seatback latch on the back seat. I repaired it with a $5 part from the dealer. Tires, oil and filters and that's about it.