[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by tumnasgt

In my experience with our Hyundai Sonata, the European numbers are way too optimistic, quoting 9l/100km combined, our last tank we got 10l/100km, and this tank looks like we might make it to the low 9s with trying from both myself and my mum. The EPA rating for it is 9.8l/100km, which seems to be a pretty reasonable estimate.

Yep, the ECE test is always optimistic and like EPA is not meant to reflect real world use but be a method of comparing one model to another on an equal footing. Petrol and Hybrid models rarely see the ECE figures, Diesels come closer but never match in 'normal' use.

One thing to check, was the Sonata exactly the same model - I think we get some manual ones as well as AT plus smaller engines sometimes (e.g. Aveo here has a 1.2, in the US its a 1.6).

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

But one fact-check:

They may not sell their hybrids in Europe but they do in the USA:

Yep, they do. They are more frequent than here in Europe. At the same time the rather nice Diesel models Ford and GM (and Chrysler) sell in Europe are not sold in the US. Some are better than VWs and Audis.

Ford/GM/Chrysler Europe does not sell the same cars that Ford/GM/Chrysler USA sells. Where they have tried (Vauxhall Sintra anyone) they have flopped, just quite a few European models sold the US have too.

The only current sellers of Hybrids in Europe are Honda and Toyota. Some makers say they plan them but nothing I can go and buy now.

My previous post suggested that the Hybrid tech is probably not suited to smaller European cars - I still think that is the case due to space and weight.

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

Hi,

You bring up a number of valid points about the difference between European vs. USA vehicles and driving experience. However, I would caution that to call hybrids 'marketing' runs a risk of blinding oneself to the technology. One sad example:...

I think you miss my point - I'm not calling Hybrids an issue solely with marketing, what I am saying is that Toyota and Honda are marketing against themselves as well as the rest of the market in trying to make their Hybrids compete against the Diesels they already sell and have invested lots of money in developing.

The Civic is a good example, Honda don't sell the Euro Civic in the USA and don't sell any CTDi models in the US. Toyota don't sell the Avensis (not sure about the latest one) in the US and don't sell any D4-D engined models. They do here and then they have to try and sell the Hybrids into the same market against them.

Tricky.

The solution for both makers is to place (marketing speak) these cars in a different place - either as a 'reliable alternative' to diesels (they also sell) or as a lifestyle choice.

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

The USA web site allows individuals to report their actual mileage.

The site I linked to was a reference site. Quite a few sites link to the ECE figures and then allow owners to quote their own. The ECE like EPA figures are meant to be a comparison under controlled conditions. I wish the ECE would accept their figures are optimistic and adjust them but I suspect not.

The whole issue of FE in tests is fraught with trouble - see the ABA testing threads on here for a start. One year Motor magazine listed the thirstiest cars they can testing and including 180 MPH Ferraris and Lambos the worst offender was a 2.5 Litre V6 Ford Mondeo - turned out that was tested in deepest winter and for a week only.