(granade pin pulled) Whats the point in the Prius?

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by robchalmers

In the US were the diesel infastructure rivals that of the hydrogen infastructure...

May I ask if you've spent much time in the US lately? Because around here, diesel is readily available at most filling stations.

The US bias against diesel comes, I think, from the wide perception that they're dirty, noisy, and stink. Which is not entirely false: most of the diesel vehicles sold (automotive class, not 18-wheeler trucks) are pickup trucks. Their engines ARE dirty, noisy, and stink. Now maybe the fact that they do is just a marketing ploy, intended to appeal to the wannabe-truckers out there, but it's still a fact.

[Arragonis]

Been thinking about this some more and another reason they don't stack up too well in Europe (vs alternatives, some diesel and some not) is not just cost, its also marketing. You have to remember we haven't had a slew of 'highbrid' versions of other cars - Ford and GM don't make any, PSA maybe will, Renault no, VW no and so on. Toyota and Honda are the only makers who sell them - Prius 3 and Insight 2.

The problem for these makers is that they are marketing against themselves. In the 1990s onwards both makers struggled to sell lots of hatchbacks compared to European makers because they all had Turbo Diesels. Peugeot ones were reckoned to be the best so suddenly Peugeot goes from being out of the top 10 cars sold to have 2 or 3 in there consistently. Toyota, Honda and Nissan didn't have any to sell and suffered.

So they go away and invest - Honda comes up with a CR Diesel and sells it in the Civic and Accord, before getting into others. Toyota released a Diesel Avensis early but it wasn't very good, so they went away and designed a new set of 1.4 - 2.0 Diesels. Both of these are selling well, loads of Honda Civic CTDi's around for example, fewer of the smaller Toyotas (tend to sell to private owners) vs the Avensis (which is mainly a company car).

And now they are having to sell the Hybrids. And to sell the Hybrids Honda (for example) is going on about the expensive and unreliable bits of a Diesel - even though they sell them. Toyota is happily selling the Prius as a lifestyle vehicle and charging a premium, alongside the Diesel Auris (same size, and with a 1.4 Diesel compared to the 1.8 in the new Prius) and Diesel Yaris.

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

I know but I've yet to find an European version of our EPA mileage page.

There is an EEC standard, there is a site for looking them up here

Car MPG - What is a Cars Fuel Efficiency

It is similar but not identical to the EPA one - same intention and thoroughness (from being in a lab point of view) and just an unrelated to reality as the EPA numbers.

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

ps. Thread title "grenade pin pulled" suggests a desire for a reality 'clue by four.'

[tumnasgt]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

It is similar but not identical to the EPA one - same intention and thoroughness (from being in a lab point of view) and just an unrelated to reality as the EPA numbers.

In my experience with our Hyundai Sonata, the European numbers are way too optimistic, quoting 9l/100km combined, our last tank we got 10l/100km, and this tank looks like we might make it to the low 9s with trying from both myself and my mum. The EPA rating for it is 9.8l/100km, which seems to be a pretty reasonable estimate.

[bwilson4web]

Hi,

You bring up a number of valid points about the difference between European vs. USA vehicles and driving experience. However, I would caution that to call hybrids 'marketing' runs a risk of blinding oneself to the technology. One sad example:
Hybrid Electric Vehicles Not As Green As They Are Painted, Analysts Contend

. . .
Jean-Jacques Chanaron Research Director within the French National Centre for Scientific Research (CNRS) and Chief Scientific Advisor at the Grenoble School of Management and Julius Teske at Grenoble, question strongly whether the current acceptance of hybrid vehicle technology particularly in the USA is in any way environmentally sustainable.
. . .
They add that the misinformed craze for hybrid vehicles especially in the USA, and increasingly in Japan and Europe, and potentially in China, could represent a red light for more innovative technologies, such as viable fuel-cell cars that can use sustainably sourced fuels, such as hydrogen.
. . .
They add that, "Such a convergence is based more on customer perception triggered by very clever marketing and communication campaigns than on pure rationale scientific arguments and may result in the need for any manufacturer operating in the USA to have a hybrid electric vehicle in its model range in order to survive."

But one fact-check:

Originally Posted by Arragonis

. . . - Ford and GM don't make any, . . .

They may not sell their hybrids in Europe but they do in the USA:

• Ford - Escape SUV and Fusion hybrid, both are serious hybrids and competitive with the Toyota equivalent models. I've test driven a Ford Escape and it is a good, solid, hybrid.
• GM - has been trying to sell auto-stop, belt assisted hybrids up until May when they finally stopped. GM called them 'mild hybrids' but the rest of us called them frauds. GM also has a 'two-mode' monster that makes no sense at all. The USA market has treated them with the care and disrespect they deserve.

One thing is the Honda Insight has not faired very well in the USA yet the users are reporting similar to Prius mileage. Given the relative body size and engine centered hybrid approach, I would expect the Honda Insight to do well in Europe.

Originally Posted by Arragonis

. . .
There is an EEC standard, there is a site for looking them up here

Car MPG - What is a Cars Fuel Efficiency

It is similar but not identical to the EPA one - same intention and thoroughness (from being in a lab point of view) and just an unrelated to reality as the EPA numbers.

The USA web site allows individuals to report their actual mileage.

BTW, there are things about Prius that I would like to see fixed. Although many things are right, they could do a bit more and gain a measurable, 20% improvement in mileage, 50 MPG -> 60 MPG. My short list:

• articulating air inlet - if cooling air is not needed, close up the front air inlets
• block-heater and traction battery topper option - let those of us who want them get a block and transaxle heater and 'charge topper' for the traction battery. Give us the option of plug-in lite.
• heat conservation - the engine and transaxle should be thermally insulated to preserve heat and moderate temperature with coolant and/or articulating air vents. We should not have to pay the full warm-up tax but treat heat as precious to be retained.
• adaptive cruise control and ECO mode standard - so when in ECO mode, the cruise control should allow a 2-5 mph slop when climbing hills. Alternatively, adaptive cruise control (and accident avoidance) so we can use other vehicles as 'pacing' cars and follow safely.

These are 'low hanging fruit' and could move the Prius further ahead of the honorable competition . . . earlier Prius (see my signature vehicles.)

Bob Wilson

[robchalmers]

[QUOTE=jamesqf;188199]May I ask if you've spent much time in the US lately? Because around here, diesel is readily available at most filling stations.

QUOTE]

Sorry my poor attempt at humour.....

As for a couple of things i 've missed out on replying on:

Green human test was unfair....why, do all drivers avoid hills? the TDi has to heat up as well as Dervs take longer at worse MPG to do it.

Actual fuel mileage registries/here/.gov sites - erm people willing to note down the fuel mileage of there cars are normally looking to improve it and that kind of misses the point which I waas trying to make. if you gave a TDi to 20 normos and told them just to drive it as they would normally and then did the same with the prii which would get better when they have kiddy runs, 2mile store runs, dump runs, days of commutes, trips to see the family(with kids and dog on board). all without knowledge of hypermiling a true blind test.

the whole 75mph in a 1.5l prius - so. it was 75mph in the jetta too and i know haven't been as anal over the aero as toyota say that they were on the Pri. if you want to knock it down to 65-68 (roughly 110kph) BE MY GUEST

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

...more innovative technologies, such as viable fuel-cell cars that can use sustainably sourced fuels, such as hydrogen.

Yeah, sure. Sustainable hydrogen, right up there with clean coal and perpetual motion.

Oh, yeah: and even if you had that impossible hydrogen infrastructure, the lag time in fuel cell response means they'd work lots better if they were in fact hybrids.

[bwilson4web]

Originally Posted by robchalmers

. . .
Green human test was unfair....why, do all drivers avoid hills? . . .

Engineering data, metrics are neither fair nor unfair as long as they are accurate:

This data shows the 'knee in the curve' that happens with the 1.5L Prius. We subsequently learned that the 1.5L engine enriches the mixture at the highest power settings to protect the catalytic converter. Above 65 mph, the slope of the NHW20 performance is steeper than the Jetta TDI and intersects at ~80 mph. This is the 'Green Human' 1% difference after 8,000 miles and nearly a month of hard driving.

Edmunds ran a "Fuel Sipper Smackdown" between the 1.5L Prius, Jetta TDI, Honda Insight, Ford Fusion and Mini:

Edmunds took pains to show three styles of driving: back roads; city, and; highway. This lets potential buyers have a clue about how each vehicle is likely to perform before they pay out $25,000.

Gathering data from the same Fuel Economy web site for any vehicle:

The sample set is statistically valid for both cars. The median and mean for the 1.5L Prius exceeds the Jetta TDI by ~17%.

Bob Wilson

[robchalmers]

but surely that knee is a characteristic that someone who normally drives at say 70-75mph needs to know and to ignore it would mask it and be unfair to the TDi.....

as you say you could run a test that favours one and claim X do it to favour the other and claim Y.

if this thread has taught me anything is that there is lots of improvement inthe hybrid ranges that I didn't kow about
I'd love to see if there is european comparison data, for instance the latest Gen3 pri, could play top trumps with something like a econetic focus, or a bluemotion golf 6.....???

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by tumnasgt

In my experience with our Hyundai Sonata, the European numbers are way too optimistic, quoting 9l/100km combined, our last tank we got 10l/100km, and this tank looks like we might make it to the low 9s with trying from both myself and my mum. The EPA rating for it is 9.8l/100km, which seems to be a pretty reasonable estimate.

Yep, the ECE test is always optimistic and like EPA is not meant to reflect real world use but be a method of comparing one model to another on an equal footing. Petrol and Hybrid models rarely see the ECE figures, Diesels come closer but never match in 'normal' use.

One thing to check, was the Sonata exactly the same model - I think we get some manual ones as well as AT plus smaller engines sometimes (e.g. Aveo here has a 1.2, in the US its a 1.6).

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

But one fact-check:

They may not sell their hybrids in Europe but they do in the USA:

Yep, they do. They are more frequent than here in Europe. At the same time the rather nice Diesel models Ford and GM (and Chrysler) sell in Europe are not sold in the US. Some are better than VWs and Audis.

Ford/GM/Chrysler Europe does not sell the same cars that Ford/GM/Chrysler USA sells. Where they have tried (Vauxhall Sintra anyone) they have flopped, just quite a few European models sold the US have too.

The only current sellers of Hybrids in Europe are Honda and Toyota. Some makers say they plan them but nothing I can go and buy now.

My previous post suggested that the Hybrid tech is probably not suited to smaller European cars - I still think that is the case due to space and weight.

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

Hi,

You bring up a number of valid points about the difference between European vs. USA vehicles and driving experience. However, I would caution that to call hybrids 'marketing' runs a risk of blinding oneself to the technology. One sad example:...

I think you miss my point - I'm not calling Hybrids an issue solely with marketing, what I am saying is that Toyota and Honda are marketing against themselves as well as the rest of the market in trying to make their Hybrids compete against the Diesels they already sell and have invested lots of money in developing.

The Civic is a good example, Honda don't sell the Euro Civic in the USA and don't sell any CTDi models in the US. Toyota don't sell the Avensis (not sure about the latest one) in the US and don't sell any D4-D engined models. They do here and then they have to try and sell the Hybrids into the same market against them.

Tricky.

The solution for both makers is to place (marketing speak) these cars in a different place - either as a 'reliable alternative' to diesels (they also sell) or as a lifestyle choice.

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

The USA web site allows individuals to report their actual mileage.

The site I linked to was a reference site. Quite a few sites link to the ECE figures and then allow owners to quote their own. The ECE like EPA figures are meant to be a comparison under controlled conditions. I wish the ECE would accept their figures are optimistic and adjust them but I suspect not.

The whole issue of FE in tests is fraught with trouble - see the ABA testing threads on here for a start. One year Motor magazine listed the thirstiest cars they can testing and including 180 MPH Ferraris and Lambos the worst offender was a 2.5 Litre V6 Ford Mondeo - turned out that was tested in deepest winter and for a week only.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by robchalmers

I'd love to see if there is european comparison data, for instance the latest Gen3 pri, could play top trumps with something like a econetic focus, or a bluemotion golf 6.....???

I kind of hoped Diesel Car mag would do this but they have changed into Diesel and Hybrid Car mag instead. Guess what ? This year's hybrid of the year was a Prius. Its competition being the Insight and, er, thats it.

Plus of course anyone buying a TDI for economy would not buy an auto. Maybe a DSG and shift it manually but not an auto.