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Nerys · 10-27-2010, 07:39 PM

Again you are incorrect. in your special little world maybe (no insult being serious now) many families can ONLY HAVE ONE CAR and that ONLY CAR can not be a small compact econo car. its just that simple.

NOW I can afford to have multiple cars. So I have the cherokee for the winter and the big honking clubwagon for long trips.

My club wagon is FAR FAR more efficient than anything you drive on an equal basis comparison.

I can lug 7 people COMFORTABLY with ALL their gear and the camper on tow at FAR better fuel economy than you can since YOU would require at least 3 cars to do the same thing. so if you get 30mpg your EFFECTIVE mpg is 10mpg lets not even factor in the production and maintenance of your 3 cars to do the same job.

SO please explain to me how society is benefited by enacting a fuel that does MORE harm to the environment EVEN IN cars designed for it (you MAY NOT ignore the pollution of its production. sorry you just can't)

so how does society gain by reducing the fuel economy of my van from 19mpg to 13mpg? explain that to me please.

Oh but wait I should buy a NEW VAN right? ok lets assume I am filthy rich (this is a GREEN issue to you afterall so lets ignore the dollar for a moment)

2011 E150 Full Size van (closest thing to my 1992 E150 XLT Clubwagon) but dollars are no issue so I can afford to make a nice interior for this new van.

city 13mpg highway 17mpg

explain to me UFO how this is an improvement? Please explain this to me?

I have a purpose built function I need to perform. this requires this van. I used to get 19mpg SOLID now I get 13mpg average.

THE NEW VAN the BRAND SPANKING NEW 2011 van you seem to think its OK to force me to buy because you want a cleaner environment and I should have a NEWER vehicle right?

17mpg. Explain that to me. its 2mpg LOWER than my "old dirty van" as you seem to think it is.

Lets compare again.

1996 Voyager 28mpg on E0 20-21mpg E10

this is a good decent all around family vehicle. a light small 3.0 V6 engine. it can town a small trailer if need be and it can hold the family and their cargo.

lets compare shall we. (note a plymouth voyager is EXACTLY the same thing as a dodge caravan)

SO let me get this straight. HOW DARE I drive an old dirty vehicle with horrible fuel economy. I should be green and CARE for the planet (even though the CORE of GREEN IS REUSE !!!!! and you want me to BUY NEW)

so what the hell lets go buy a BRAND SPANKING NEW 2011 Dodge Caravan.

25mpg....... wait something is not right here.

my van 28mpg the new van 25mpg ???????

DO YOU NOT SEE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE UFO ???

SO I do what you said. I took the old dirty cars off the road and replace them with BRAND SPANKING NEW versions of the same exact cars and the new ones GET WORSE FUEL ECONOMY.

how is this being greener? how is this lowering pollution?

I told you in the beginning my "bull****" detection method for "green"

if its not cheaper its NOT GREENER.

Greener by definition is CHEAPER because greener ultimately means USE LESS and USING LESS is always CHEAPER.

so if its not cheaper its either artificially priced or its just simply NOT GREENER.

This is why NIMH powered EV's are GREENER and LITHIUM powered EV's are NOT greener and is also why you can NOT buy a NIMH powered EV but can buy an expensive Lithium powered EV.

Biodiesel? you call that green? not even close. for YOU sure yes for YOU as one single solitary individual its "greener" but biodiesel is a non starter we CAN NOT DO IT for everyone there is not enough restaurants using enough oil to make it work.

and define BLENDS. blends is not greener. blends of what? E10 is a BLEND and it sure as hell is not greener.

"And IMHO the way forward is not through the corn and soy agribusiness"

well at least we agree on that 100%

"But carburetors and polluting vehicles need to be retired"

this is BS and you know it. a carborated car getting 40mpg is FAR FAR cleaner than a fuel injected car getting 15mpg.

and NONE of my cars save the 74 Thing is carborated.

Polluting FUELS need to be retired. NOT polluting cars. so RETIRE ethanol since it pollutes far more than gasoline does.

and don't give me any carbon crap if your truly for "greener" then you know damned well there is a lot more to pollution than CARBON.

they harp on carbon because that is the ONLY measure by which Ethanol "might" be cleaner and even that is in question.

so tell me. you really think that 3 or 4 PRIUS' are cleaner and less polluting than my ONE Clubwagon? thats how many of those you would need to drive to do the same thing I am doing with the one van.

SO how many prius' would you need to haul "materials" from one place to another instead of that dirty pickup truck?

how big is your family? what VEHICLES do you drive. your biodiesel is NOT clean is NOT green and is NOT renewable. its just "cleaner" than gasoline but only if you use LESS than I would in gasoline.

so how many MPG do you get? how many people can you fit in it? is it just you and your wife? JUST you?

I always 95% of the time have 3 people in my car. compared to how many prius' I see driving around with ONE person in the car?

you want to REALLY come out as GREEN UFO. they lets put the cards on the table. How green are you actually. not just "apparently"

because there is BEING GREEN and then there is the "IMAGE" of green without actually being green.

10-27-2010, 07:39 PM	#379 (permalink)
Nerys Grrr :-) Join Date: May 2008 Location: Levittown PA Posts: 800 Cherokee - '88 Jeep Cherokee 90 day: 19.44 mpg (US) Ryo-Ohki - '94 Geo Metro Xfi 90 day: 50.15 mpg (US) Vger 2 - '00 Plymouth Grand Voyager SE Ninja - '89 Geo Tracker 90 day: 30.27 mpg (US) Thanks: 12 Thanked 31 Times in 25 Posts	Again you are incorrect. in your special little world maybe (no insult being serious now) many families can ONLY HAVE ONE CAR and that ONLY CAR can not be a small compact econo car. its just that simple. NOW I can afford to have multiple cars. So I have the cherokee for the winter and the big honking clubwagon for long trips. My club wagon is FAR FAR more efficient than anything you drive on an equal basis comparison. I can lug 7 people COMFORTABLY with ALL their gear and the camper on tow at FAR better fuel economy than you can since YOU would require at least 3 cars to do the same thing. so if you get 30mpg your EFFECTIVE mpg is 10mpg lets not even factor in the production and maintenance of your 3 cars to do the same job. SO please explain to me how society is benefited by enacting a fuel that does MORE harm to the environment EVEN IN cars designed for it (you MAY NOT ignore the pollution of its production. sorry you just can't) so how does society gain by reducing the fuel economy of my van from 19mpg to 13mpg? explain that to me please. Oh but wait I should buy a NEW VAN right? ok lets assume I am filthy rich (this is a GREEN issue to you afterall so lets ignore the dollar for a moment) 2011 E150 Full Size van (closest thing to my 1992 E150 XLT Clubwagon) but dollars are no issue so I can afford to make a nice interior for this new van. city 13mpg highway 17mpg explain to me UFO how this is an improvement? Please explain this to me? I have a purpose built function I need to perform. this requires this van. I used to get 19mpg SOLID now I get 13mpg average. THE NEW VAN the BRAND SPANKING NEW 2011 van you seem to think its OK to force me to buy because you want a cleaner environment and I should have a NEWER vehicle right? 17mpg. Explain that to me. its 2mpg LOWER than my "old dirty van" as you seem to think it is. Lets compare again. 1996 Voyager 28mpg on E0 20-21mpg E10 this is a good decent all around family vehicle. a light small 3.0 V6 engine. it can town a small trailer if need be and it can hold the family and their cargo. lets compare shall we. (note a plymouth voyager is EXACTLY the same thing as a dodge caravan) SO let me get this straight. HOW DARE I drive an old dirty vehicle with horrible fuel economy. I should be green and CARE for the planet (even though the CORE of GREEN IS REUSE !!!!! and you want me to BUY NEW) so what the hell lets go buy a BRAND SPANKING NEW 2011 Dodge Caravan. 25mpg....... wait something is not right here. my van 28mpg the new van 25mpg ??????? DO YOU NOT SEE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE UFO ??? SO I do what you said. I took the old dirty cars off the road and replace them with BRAND SPANKING NEW versions of the same exact cars and the new ones GET WORSE FUEL ECONOMY. how is this being greener? how is this lowering pollution? I told you in the beginning my "bull****" detection method for "green" if its not cheaper its NOT GREENER. Greener by definition is CHEAPER because greener ultimately means USE LESS and USING LESS is always CHEAPER. so if its not cheaper its either artificially priced or its just simply NOT GREENER. This is why NIMH powered EV's are GREENER and LITHIUM powered EV's are NOT greener and is also why you can NOT buy a NIMH powered EV but can buy an expensive Lithium powered EV. Biodiesel? you call that green? not even close. for YOU sure yes for YOU as one single solitary individual its "greener" but biodiesel is a non starter we CAN NOT DO IT for everyone there is not enough restaurants using enough oil to make it work. and define BLENDS. blends is not greener. blends of what? E10 is a BLEND and it sure as hell is not greener. "And IMHO the way forward is not through the corn and soy agribusiness" well at least we agree on that 100% "But carburetors and polluting vehicles need to be retired" this is BS and you know it. a carborated car getting 40mpg is FAR FAR cleaner than a fuel injected car getting 15mpg. and NONE of my cars save the 74 Thing is carborated. Polluting FUELS need to be retired. NOT polluting cars. so RETIRE ethanol since it pollutes far more than gasoline does. and don't give me any carbon crap if your truly for "greener" then you know damned well there is a lot more to pollution than CARBON. they harp on carbon because that is the ONLY measure by which Ethanol "might" be cleaner and even that is in question. so tell me. you really think that 3 or 4 PRIUS' are cleaner and less polluting than my ONE Clubwagon? thats how many of those you would need to drive to do the same thing I am doing with the one van. SO how many prius' would you need to haul "materials" from one place to another instead of that dirty pickup truck? how big is your family? what VEHICLES do you drive. your biodiesel is NOT clean is NOT green and is NOT renewable. its just "cleaner" than gasoline but only if you use LESS than I would in gasoline. so how many MPG do you get? how many people can you fit in it? is it just you and your wife? JUST you? I always 95% of the time have 3 people in my car. compared to how many prius' I see driving around with ONE person in the car? you want to REALLY come out as GREEN UFO. they lets put the cards on the table. How green are you actually. not just "apparently" because there is BEING GREEN and then there is the "IMAGE" of green without actually being green.