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NeilBlanchard · 11-04-2010, 10:50 AM

The Prius engine is 38% *peak* efficiency. The Edison2 VLC is 34% *peak* efficiency. On average (after warming up!) most internal combustion engines are 18-20% while they are moving the vehicle. If they have stop/start, they save 5-8% overall, but while idling and sitting still they are 0% efficient.

The worst coal plants are 30-35%, and the newer ones are ~45%. Gas fired electrical plants are ~60%. And hydro, wind, solar, wave, tidal, geothermal use no fuel, so by this measure, they are 100% efficient. Grid losses are about 7.5%.

Gasoline "contains" both electricity and natural gas, and the electricity "in" gasoline contains coal, natural gas, nuclear, and some additional oil. All of this additional energy adds to the carbon footprint of using the gasoline:

*Since it takes years to find oil fields, with lots of scientific methods and computer modeling, etc. Many exploratory rigs fail to find oil.

* and years build the rigs

* lots of energy to move these giant rigs into place -- it takes months to "sail" them

* and lots of energy to make the materials used (like drilling mud which is very energy intensive)

* and lots of power to drill for months (which adds all the carbon used to make it)

* energy to transport workers and equipment back and forth to the oil rig

* and then more electricity to extract the oil (which adds all the carbon used to make the electricity)

* and then more energy to transport it in tankers and/or pipelines (each of which have to be constructed and maintained)

* and then the oil has to be pumped into storage tanks (which have to be built and maintained)

* and then pumped again to be transported to refineries (which have to be built and maintained)

* then it has to be heated and distilled for days (requiring as much electricity as a city of 250,000 -- and many therms of natural gas, too; which has a similar process to oil except the refinement)

* scrub the emissions from the refinery

* and then be pumped into storage tanks (which have to be built and maintained)

* and the additives need to be made (ethanol is a whole nightmarish feedback loop in itself! Natural gas is used to make the fertilizer for the corn -- corn is very fertilizer intensive crop, lots of chemicals need to be manufactured, and the tractors run on diesel, and it has to be transported to a it's own refinery -- and "cooked" and distilled...)

*pumped again and transported by truck, or trains, or pipelines (which also have to be built and maintained)

*pumped again into storage tanks at each gas station (which have to be built, installed and maintained)

*and finally, the gasoline has to be pumped into a vehicle's tank.

ALL OF THE ENERGY USED along the way from find the oil, through the myriad steps until it is in your vehicle's tank MUST BE accounted for in the carbon footprint of gasoline.

**** Now, if we add military spending and foreign policy that are largely driven by the need to maintain a secure and stable supply of oil, then the equation becomes overwhelmingly in favor of electricity.

--------------

The process for coal is far simpler:

* Find the coal deposits

* Mine the coal, (requiring the equipment to be built and maintained)

* Transport it on trains (which is the most efficient way to move anything)

* Store it in big piles, and move it around to keep it from igniting because of the pressure (requiring equipment to be built and maintained)

* Burn it to generate power (requiring the plant to be built and maintained)

* Scrub the emissions

* Store the fly ash safely

* and transmit it over the grid (requiring it to be built and maintained)

--------------

Oil requires (at least) 18 steps that use energy, vs 8 steps for coal.

Oil is finite, and electricity is virtually infinite.
Oil is all carbon, and electricity is potentially carbon-free.

Then, an ICE powered vehicle is 18-20% efficient vs ~85% efficient EV's.

11-04-2010, 10:50 AM	#45 (permalink)
NeilBlanchard Master EcoModder Join Date: May 2008 Location: Maynard, MA Eaarth Posts: 7,907 Mica Blue - '05 Scion xA RS 2.0 Team Toyota 90 day: 42.48 mpg (US) Forest - '15 Nissan Leaf S Team Nissan 90 day: 156.46 mpg (US) Number 7 - '15 VW e-Golf SEL TEAM VW AUDI Group 90 day: 155.81 mpg (US) Thanks: 3,475 Thanked 2,950 Times in 1,844 Posts	The Prius engine is 38% peak efficiency. The Edison2 VLC is 34% peak efficiency. On average (after warming up!) most internal combustion engines are 18-20% while they are moving the vehicle. If they have stop/start, they save 5-8% overall, but while idling and sitting still they are 0% efficient. The worst coal plants are 30-35%, and the newer ones are ~45%. Gas fired electrical plants are ~60%. And hydro, wind, solar, wave, tidal, geothermal use no fuel, so by this measure, they are 100% efficient. Grid losses are about 7.5%. Gasoline "contains" both electricity and natural gas, and the electricity "in" gasoline contains coal, natural gas, nuclear, and some additional oil. All of this additional energy adds to the carbon footprint of using the gasoline: Since it takes years to find oil fields, with lots of scientific methods and computer modeling, etc. Many exploratory rigs fail to find oil. and years build the rigs * lots of energy to move these giant rigs into place -- it takes months to "sail" them * and lots of energy to make the materials used (like drilling mud which is very energy intensive) * and lots of power to drill for months (which adds all the carbon used to make it) * energy to transport workers and equipment back and forth to the oil rig * and then more electricity to extract the oil (which adds all the carbon used to make the electricity) * and then more energy to transport it in tankers and/or pipelines (each of which have to be constructed and maintained) * and then the oil has to be pumped into storage tanks (which have to be built and maintained) * and then pumped again to be transported to refineries (which have to be built and maintained) * then it has to be heated and distilled for days (requiring as much electricity as a city of 250,000 -- and many therms of natural gas, too; which has a similar process to oil except the refinement) * scrub the emissions from the refinery * and then be pumped into storage tanks (which have to be built and maintained) * and the additives need to be made (ethanol is a whole nightmarish feedback loop in itself! Natural gas is used to make the fertilizer for the corn -- corn is very fertilizer intensive crop, lots of chemicals need to be manufactured, and the tractors run on diesel, and it has to be transported to a it's own refinery -- and "cooked" and distilled...) pumped again and transported by truck, or trains, or pipelines (which also have to be built and maintained) pumped again into storage tanks at each gas station (which have to be built, installed and maintained) and finally, the gasoline has to be pumped into a vehicle's tank. ALL OF THE ENERGY USED along the way from find the oil, through the myriad steps until it is in your vehicle's tank MUST BE accounted for in the carbon footprint of gasoline. *** Now, if we add military spending and foreign policy that are largely driven by the need to maintain a secure and stable supply of oil, then the equation becomes overwhelmingly in favor of electricity. -------------- The process for coal is far simpler: * Find the coal deposits * Mine the coal, (requiring the equipment to be built and maintained) * Transport it on trains (which is the most efficient way to move anything) * Store it in big piles, and move it around to keep it from igniting because of the pressure (requiring equipment to be built and maintained) * Burn it to generate power (requiring the plant to be built and maintained) * Scrub the emissions * Store the fly ash safely * and transmit it over the grid (requiring it to be built and maintained) -------------- Oil requires (at least) 18 steps that use energy, vs 8 steps for coal. Oil is finite, and electricity is virtually infinite. Oil is all carbon, and electricity is potentially carbon-free. Then, an ICE powered vehicle is 18-20% efficient vs ~85% efficient EV's. __________________ Sincerely, Neil http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Last edited by NeilBlanchard; 11-04-2010 at 10:59 AM..