[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Illusion, because you're not figuring in all the resource costs of the city-machine that supports the tower block. Now it's true that using current standard technology, the tower block might be more efficient than a suburban McMansion, but with improved technology (and lifestyle choices), a rural lifestyle can be far less energy & resource intensive than an urban one. See e.g. In Rural Minnesota, a 70-Acre Lab for Sustainable Living - NYTimes.com

Agreed but for most people who don't care to do this kind of thing then a big box with shared resources means less is required (per person) than a "spread out" society if you want to mandate it.

Of course if we could get everyone to do insulation etc. then maybe that would change but not enough for what the "anti CO2 war" would need IMHO - I would be interested to see your stats here.

The simple bottom line is surely that the "spread out" lifestyle is not scalable. And if they did who would make your PC, your phone, your internet - that needs factories, power stations, stuff - not possible when people all live in the sticks unless they all have cars and trucks and wires ?

It is all "do as I say not as I do."

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Why is this nonsense? Especially if you live in one of those tower blocks, where it would be easy to add contraceptives to the drinking water :-)

It is nonsense because if everyone here believed in protecting the planet and overpopulation there would be no kids here. Quite a few (folks here have blogs which are easy to check) have kids - as do I. If they really really cared they would have drunk those contraceptives and refrained. But no they want their's to live - maybe forever, who knows ?

But no - it is "Do as I say not as I do.", as usual.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

But which in the main uses far less power (& other resources) than alternative ways of doing the same thing. Just consider what went into paying a bill pre-internet: the business printed the bill, stuck it in an envelope, mail carrier brought it to your door, you wrote a check (which someone had to print, and make paper to print it on), stuck it in an envelope, the mail carrier came around again to take it back to the business. The business sorted all the checks they received, did accounting, took the checks to their bank where more accounting was done, the checks were sorted and sent to issuing banks. Your check wound up at your bank, where more accouning was done, and money finally subtracted from your account - for which the bank would print and mail a statement to you. Now the whole process is done, far more efficiently, by shuffling a few electrons.

I agree this is far more efficient. My point is that we expect this access 24/7 - so that means a power station has to be working to give you this, and to power the infrastructure that allows you to check your bank balance at 3am - that means power, internet, hosting, cooling, cables, security - it all costs and it all costs resources. It is also why we can all access this forum just now.

Compared to the earlier world with paper, post and cheques we are about even given the growth in traffic too.

But it still consumes a hell of a lot of power which renewables can't supply 24/7. If you think they can you are in a fantasy world. I'm happy if you can prove otherwise - it will be a long post I think or maybe just a short one stating I don't know enough which will be wrong - your choice.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

So exactly why shouldn't we be using nuclear? Because, just as some politicians listen to the "CO2 doesn't cause warming" crowd, so do others listen to the "Omigawd, it's radioactive" bunch. Because these groups get so involved in their fantasy worlds that they reject out of hand any information that conflicts with them?

I'm not in that crowd (see earlier post). I'm happy with nuclear, a lot of people aren't. New Nuclear will be built and is needed. Now. Already Germany has restarted its Nuclear, as has Japan. The UK recently extended the life of some nuclear stations too. Nuclear is the future - get on the bus man...

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Anyone wonder why a properly-designed fridge doesn't keep things cold for more than a few hours without power?

I have wondered that quite a lot recently (we had some power issues last year). From research think it comes down to the balance between price and efficiency. Most manufacturers assume continuous power supplies with maybe a short break so they design for this to keep costs down.

Anything over 120 minutes starts to cause a problem, over 180 you may as well assume anything inside is defrosted.

A reasonable requirement to extend the power off insulation (assuming the door is closed) to 180 minutes seems like a good regulation. But we don't seem to get that from government - instead they just inflate our power bills to pay for unreliable windmills.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Not exactly. Why should we expect/insist that the so-called developing world turn itself into mirror copies of the first world? Especially when there is so much about this world that is unpleasant?

It isn't us - to them what we have looks damn nice compared to what they have now - just like our earlier chat about cities vs rural life - the migration is happening now in Africa, Asia, South America - all over the world. It has for about 1000 years.

Again this is a lot of "do as I say not as I do."

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Which is the wrong way to look at it. My withdrawing to a yurt - however much I might enjoy it - would have a negligible effect on net CO2 output.

Apparently everyone should do their bit

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Whereas if I engage with the world, and help persuade millions of others to improve their lifestyles, that could (if I'm successful, of course) have a much larger effect.

Pure speculative and mindless fantasy - I don't think I could come up with a better example of "Do as I say not as I do." as that. The numbers of "campaigners" out there is overwhelming - I assume they have the same "dream" too.

In the meantime they consume power and generate CO2 which apparently is the enemy of the world, but they do good so it is OK.

Sorry I refrain from insults but this is madness, absolute unadulterated and pure bollocks of the first rank. If all cannot see the hypocrisy here then there is no hope at all.

It was going so well too.