It's all over but for the sweating?

[freebeard]

Manufacturing will come back to the United States, but there won't be Union wages for the robots. Apple is leading the way, but the factory will be owned by FoxConn.

I have a friend who contends it is only the air pollution from China that is moderating the climate of the West Coast USA.

Fifty years later I'm living in that "comic book". Still happy.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Warming continues even through the past sixteen years. So it is total bunk otherwise.

Well, take that "total bunk" idea up with the met office because they now agree the warming is paused. Read the links to the scientists carefully - there is wisdom there if you wish to follow it. They even suggest is a pause - not a stop.

But never mind. At the end of the day it is up to you - good luck.

Originally Posted by freebeard

Fifty years later I'm living in that "comic book". Still happy.

Well kinda - otherwise you wouldn't be here in this forum powered by the internet. You know the internet - invented in America during the cold war, productionised in Japan at the end of the "good old days" of economic boom, and now made in China very cheaply so we don't have inflation.

I like comics too

=================================

This does lead me to a question - if CO2 induced climate change is the major crisis facing the world's civilisation right now what are you doing here ?

Sounds odd ?

Think about it.

We live in houses which are expensive to build in terms of resources. Why ? We can use less resources for building if we all agree to live in a tower block.

They consume energy for lighting, heating, cooking etc. This could be shared in a block - especially heating. Local councils here in the UK used to heat local houses using water heated from the burning of waste and circulated between them.

Anyone here living in their own house with maybe some land volunteering to move into a tower block ? No I thought not.

Some of us have kids - there are the Hummers of civilisation in terms of resource consumption and CO2 production. And we discuss over population here too. So to prevent this do we stop people having kids or just kill some people - and who do we start with, the old, the young - both are "undproductive" ?

Obviously these ideas are nonsense, but they need to be thought about - is YOUR kid more valuable than one in Africa or Bangladesh ? Should your elderly parents live longer when people die at 40 or 50 in those places ?

Difficult questions.

And yet we are here on this forum which is on the internet.

That means we have a PC or a Phone which needs power, that makes CO2 and makes / consumes dangerous metals and causes polution. We communicate over a network which needs power - CO2, heavy metals, polution. If it isn't we moan a lot at our local internet provider, threaten to move from them as customers, give them a bad review, tell our friends and so on.

Also we expect our power to work 24/7 - that includes in the middle of the night when the wind might not blow and the sun isn't shining so also when renewables don't seem to work at all - so we also need to burn gas or coal or use nuclear.

Bummer ? Can we get away with temporary power ? Anyone here want to try that and see what happens to the contents of your fridge ? Anyone want to do that again and think what might happen if you had to keep medicine in your fridge ?

This is what we expect the developing world to deal with because we fear CO2.

So we meet on a forum hosted on a server which is also available 24/7 (power and network as above) sitting in a server farm which is not only backed up by a UPS (which consumes power to keep it charged) it is also air conditioned - thats loads more power and more CO2 and more resources and more polution.

I suspect this server is not busy 24/7 even with all the worldwide visitors here.

And this is a forum discussing the best way to drive and mod our cars - you know cars - that make CO2, and create polution as they go and make polution in their creation and disposal and servicing - just where do those old spark plugs go, that old air filter, that old oil ?

And no, not all of us have "recycled" old cars but we tend to hold on to them for longer.

By any measure this is a total crime against Mother Gaia and any future generations - according to some people we are literally murdering future generations and should face "crimes against humanity" trials just so we can compare grill blocks, side skirts, WAIs and the best use of coroplast.

Like most of us I rely to a greater or lesser extent on our civilisation - power, comms, food supplies, fuel supplies - the lot. We all do even if some don't like to. Minimising that reliance seems sensible because it reduces the resources used and reduces our financial burden. Recycling is also a really good idea if managed well.

Surely if you believe this is the clear and present danger against the world and humanity / civilisation you should be holed up in a yurt somewhere off the grid, communicating only by mobile phone (2nd hand of course) charged by solar power and eating only food you have grown or caught yourself cooked on stoves powered by stuff which either generates no CO2 or where you can offset it.

I suspect this is not the case, but I am a cynic.

Prove me wrong - please.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

We live in houses which are expensive to build in terms of resources. Why ? We can use less resources for building if we all agree to live in a tower block.

Illusion, because you're not figuring in all the resource costs of the city-machine that supports the tower block. Now it's true that using current standard technology, the tower block might be more efficient than a suburban McMansion, but with improved technology (and lifestyle choices), a rural lifestyle can be far less energy & resource intensive than an urban one. See e.g. In Rural Minnesota, a 70-Acre Lab for Sustainable Living - NYTimes.com

And we discuss over population here too. So to prevent this do we stop people having kids...

Why is this nonsense? Especially if you live in one of those tower blocks, where it would be easy to add contraceptives to the drinking water :-)

That means we have a PC or a Phone which needs power, that makes CO2 and makes / consumes dangerous metals and causes polution. We communicate over a network which needs power - CO2, heavy metals, polution.

But which in the main uses far less power (& other resources) than alternative ways of doing the same thing. Just consider what went into paying a bill pre-internet: the business printed the bill, stuck it in an envelope, mail carrier brought it to your door, you wrote a check (which someone had to print, and make paper to print it on), stuck it in an envelope, the mail carrier came around again to take it back to the business. The business sorted all the checks they received, did accounting, took the checks to their bank where more accounting was done, the checks were sorted and sent to issuing banks. Your check wound up at your bank, where more accouning was done, and money finally subtracted from your account - for which the bank would print and mail a statement to you. Now the whole process is done, far more efficiently, by shuffling a few electrons.

...so we also need to burn gas or coal or use nuclear.

So exactly why shouldn't we be using nuclear? Because, just as some politicians listen to the "CO2 doesn't cause warming" crowd, so do others listen to the "Omigawd, it's radioactive" bunch. Because these groups get so involved in their fantasy worlds that they reject out of hand any information that conflicts with them?

Anyone here want to try that and see what happens to the contents of your fridge ? Anyone want to do that again and think what might happen if you had to keep medicine in your fridge ?

Anyone wonder why a properly-designed fridge doesn't keep things cold for more than a few hours without power?

This is what we expect the developing world to deal with because we fear CO2.

Not exactly. Why should we expect/insist that the so-called developing world turn itself into mirror copies of the first world? Especially when there is so much about this world that is unpleasant?

Surely if you believe this is the clear and present danger against the world and humanity / civilisation you should be holed up in a yurt somewhere off the grid...

Which is the wrong way to look at it. My withdrawing to a yurt - however much I might enjoy it - would have a negligible effect on net CO2 output. Whereas if I engage with the world, and help persuade millions of others to improve their lifestyles, that could (if I'm successful, of course) have a much larger effect.

[NeilBlanchard]

They had to add a new color to the temperature map of Australia - hmmm, why would that be?

Off-The-Charts Heat Wave Brings Australia Its Hottest Average Temperature And New Map Colors For Temps Above 122°F! | ThinkProgress



The ground here in New England is no longer frozen - it stayed frozen for all of about a week. Do you know what the building codes call for a depth of foundation footings?

Four feet below grade.

I'd be surprised if the ground froze down 2 inches... and it was the same last year, too. Lakes and ponds are still largely open water - no ice to even skate on, let alone harvest.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Illusion, because you're not figuring in all the resource costs of the city-machine that supports the tower block. Now it's true that using current standard technology, the tower block might be more efficient than a suburban McMansion, but with improved technology (and lifestyle choices), a rural lifestyle can be far less energy & resource intensive than an urban one. See e.g. In Rural Minnesota, a 70-Acre Lab for Sustainable Living - NYTimes.com

Agreed but for most people who don't care to do this kind of thing then a big box with shared resources means less is required (per person) than a "spread out" society if you want to mandate it.

Of course if we could get everyone to do insulation etc. then maybe that would change but not enough for what the "anti CO2 war" would need IMHO - I would be interested to see your stats here.

The simple bottom line is surely that the "spread out" lifestyle is not scalable. And if they did who would make your PC, your phone, your internet - that needs factories, power stations, stuff - not possible when people all live in the sticks unless they all have cars and trucks and wires ?

It is all "do as I say not as I do."

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Why is this nonsense? Especially if you live in one of those tower blocks, where it would be easy to add contraceptives to the drinking water :-)

It is nonsense because if everyone here believed in protecting the planet and overpopulation there would be no kids here. Quite a few (folks here have blogs which are easy to check) have kids - as do I. If they really really cared they would have drunk those contraceptives and refrained. But no they want their's to live - maybe forever, who knows ?

But no - it is "Do as I say not as I do.", as usual.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

But which in the main uses far less power (& other resources) than alternative ways of doing the same thing. Just consider what went into paying a bill pre-internet: the business printed the bill, stuck it in an envelope, mail carrier brought it to your door, you wrote a check (which someone had to print, and make paper to print it on), stuck it in an envelope, the mail carrier came around again to take it back to the business. The business sorted all the checks they received, did accounting, took the checks to their bank where more accounting was done, the checks were sorted and sent to issuing banks. Your check wound up at your bank, where more accouning was done, and money finally subtracted from your account - for which the bank would print and mail a statement to you. Now the whole process is done, far more efficiently, by shuffling a few electrons.

I agree this is far more efficient. My point is that we expect this access 24/7 - so that means a power station has to be working to give you this, and to power the infrastructure that allows you to check your bank balance at 3am - that means power, internet, hosting, cooling, cables, security - it all costs and it all costs resources. It is also why we can all access this forum just now.

Compared to the earlier world with paper, post and cheques we are about even given the growth in traffic too.

But it still consumes a hell of a lot of power which renewables can't supply 24/7. If you think they can you are in a fantasy world. I'm happy if you can prove otherwise - it will be a long post I think or maybe just a short one stating I don't know enough which will be wrong - your choice.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

So exactly why shouldn't we be using nuclear? Because, just as some politicians listen to the "CO2 doesn't cause warming" crowd, so do others listen to the "Omigawd, it's radioactive" bunch. Because these groups get so involved in their fantasy worlds that they reject out of hand any information that conflicts with them?

I'm not in that crowd (see earlier post). I'm happy with nuclear, a lot of people aren't. New Nuclear will be built and is needed. Now. Already Germany has restarted its Nuclear, as has Japan. The UK recently extended the life of some nuclear stations too. Nuclear is the future - get on the bus man...

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Anyone wonder why a properly-designed fridge doesn't keep things cold for more than a few hours without power?

I have wondered that quite a lot recently (we had some power issues last year). From research think it comes down to the balance between price and efficiency. Most manufacturers assume continuous power supplies with maybe a short break so they design for this to keep costs down.

Anything over 120 minutes starts to cause a problem, over 180 you may as well assume anything inside is defrosted.

A reasonable requirement to extend the power off insulation (assuming the door is closed) to 180 minutes seems like a good regulation. But we don't seem to get that from government - instead they just inflate our power bills to pay for unreliable windmills.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Not exactly. Why should we expect/insist that the so-called developing world turn itself into mirror copies of the first world? Especially when there is so much about this world that is unpleasant?

It isn't us - to them what we have looks damn nice compared to what they have now - just like our earlier chat about cities vs rural life - the migration is happening now in Africa, Asia, South America - all over the world. It has for about 1000 years.

Again this is a lot of "do as I say not as I do."

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Which is the wrong way to look at it. My withdrawing to a yurt - however much I might enjoy it - would have a negligible effect on net CO2 output.

Apparently everyone should do their bit

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Whereas if I engage with the world, and help persuade millions of others to improve their lifestyles, that could (if I'm successful, of course) have a much larger effect.

Pure speculative and mindless fantasy - I don't think I could come up with a better example of "Do as I say not as I do." as that. The numbers of "campaigners" out there is overwhelming - I assume they have the same "dream" too.

In the meantime they consume power and generate CO2 which apparently is the enemy of the world, but they do good so it is OK.

Sorry I refrain from insults but this is madness, absolute unadulterated and pure bollocks of the first rank. If all cannot see the hypocrisy here then there is no hope at all.

It was going so well too.

[NeilBlanchard]

It is not the children that are the problem - it is the burning of the fossil fuels! You can have regular lives without fossil fuels!

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

They had to add a new color to the temperature map of Australia - hmmm, why would that be?

Well it is / was a prediction - it has receded now - less purple.

If you had taken some time to research it you would note that the same people predicted permanent droughts a few years ago...

...just before loads of floods and overloaded dams and people drowning or being bitten by poisonous snakes or attacked by crocks in their own homes.

At least they protected themselves with a desal plant.

No wait - The World Today - Victorians stuck with desalination white elephant 01/03/2011

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

It is not the children that are the problem - it is the burning of the fossil fuels! You can have regular lives without fossil fuels!

Go on then, how do you do that whilst being here - with your PC, internet and so on ?

Do you go off grid or not ?

[NeilBlanchard]

The Australian heatwave and fires are all too real. Those are actual temperatures, right now.

[Arragonis]

What real temperatures right now ?

Really ?

Oh FFS

Did you bother to read the caption - it says

The Australian government’s new forecasting map now has colors that go up to 54°C [129°F].

Now (at 8:50 pm UTC 13th Jan 2013) the same map looks like this



No purple.

Do the research, look behind the curtain...