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Originally Posted by IamIan
To go as far as all HEVs ... is an even larger thing.
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Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile
But yes, today it's a bit different as the Camry Hybrid only adds $5k over the ICE models.
(In reference to G1)Now this I can fully appreciate...
In future, as ICE regs drive ever greater engine complexity, Hybrids may well become a way to keep engines simple and reliable.
In short, hybrids make sense if you can only manage to match the EPA figures, and only long term. If you can get 50%+ over EPA out of your petrol manual it seems a hybrid is going to be a tough sell.
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I don't think I ever included all HEV's as being unjustifiable. Most of my general HEV comments have been pretty much in line with everyone else's. What I do disagree with is Gen1's being the poster boy for hybrids.
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IMO 1st gen Insights don't belong in the debate, as there are no alloy bodied, streamlined, two seat sub compact ICE cars to compare it to. It's probably closest to an Elio trike which gets (should it actually be built) similar numbers.
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It bares weight as long as you keep referencing the $47k Australian price... which as you agreed is only relevant as an artificial price increase in Australia.
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Um, for whatever reason it took until post 150 for someone (you) to post the fact that the Gen1 was very cheap in the US. I think I even said it was a bargain.
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No Honda made in Japan is priced in Australia on par with the same Made in Japan Honda priced in US ... none of them... Australia penalized the I1 to the tune of $30,000 .. that isn't the car itself ... it's Australia.
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The usual mark up for a Japanese car is around 30% (over the US price), that can easily be accounted for by costs associated with shipping, taxes and having a small market (the current top spec Insight is AU$35k here vs AU$31,500 in the US - the fact we've been paying US$5.80/gal only makes the hybrid case stronger here), which is what I mean when I say 'line-ball' it's not enough difference to have a multipage debate about
. The Insight was marked up 100%, after you allow for taxes etc. For that we have no explanation. It was twice as expensive as the Japanese built Civic, for that we have no explanation.
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I request you back up you 'clearly not' claim ... show me any other non-Australian market that charged MSRP the $47k for the Insight.
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To do that I would have to be able to speak every language in the world. But like I already said, a Fit costs near enough to $100k in Singapore. Do you really think the Insight was cheaper than a Fit?
There are plenty of countries where cars are far more expensive than they are here:
The Ten Most Expensive Places To Buy A Car
If the Insight was sold in any of these markets it would have cost more than our US$40k. There are no doubt dozens of other countries not nominated by Jalopnik readers. For reference the 86 costs US$24k here, that's $1600 more than in the US or what I would call 'line ball'.
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#1> Current in 2012 has nothing to do with how profitable a car was in 2000.
#2> Read the source you sited ... It supports my HEV position and is actually against yours ... that article attributed it ... not to anything at all to do with the manufacturing of the cars ... or the technology in the cars ... Weather it was a HEV or not .. etc ... Which is exactly the point I've been making ... just the current exchange rate Yen to $.
#3> Your own article further explains why ... it is not a loss ... but a net gain for Honda to still do those imports ... "Honda needs the vehicles to keep segments covered and to keep its customers coming back to showrooms."
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I'm not trying to 'prove' anything that's false. All I wanted to say is it's not uncommon to sell vehicles at a loss. You state repeatedly that it wasn't sold at a loss, that it represents future investment etc. But many companies loose money on every vehicle they sell. Neither you or I have the data to back up our positions either way, but in 2013 Ford and GM (Europe) lost over $1000 on every vehicle they sold:
Porsche emerges as world
Selling at an outright loss happens. It's not exclusive to HEV's, but it happens. We do know Honda admitted to selling at a loss, how much and how they justified that loss is all that's up for debate.