Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > EcoModding Central
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 07-22-2018, 08:45 AM   #41 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
stefanv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 85

2001 Saturn - '01 Saturn SL1
90 day: 41.68 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3
Thanked 54 Times in 30 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile View Post
You can try this (in someone else's car of course). Sit on a hill, hold the car on the clutch at idle. Increase RPM. The car doesn't move because regardless of RPM, you're only transferring the same number of newtons.
Yes, you're transferring the same number of Newtons (force), but you're expending more power while producing those Newtons (thus, less efficiently). That extra power has to go somewhere. Since it isn't going into making the car move, it is going into removing material from the clutch and making it hotter.

Slip time and RPM is what wears out a clutch. It's just like if I'm sanding a piece of wood. If I apply the same amount of force, but sand faster, I will remove wood faster. If this weren't the case, power sanders would be pointless, since you could just make one firm but slow pass with a piece of sandpaper and achieve the same result.

__________________
Stefan Vorkoetter: Programmer, hobbyist, amateur watchmaker, pilot, and collector of fountain pens, slide rules, calculators, and watches.

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 07-22-2018, 11:25 PM   #42 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
oldtamiyaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,510

UFI - '12 Fiat 500 Twinair
Team Turbocharged!
90 day: 40.3 mpg (US)

Jeep - '05 Jeep Wrangler Renegade
90 day: 18.09 mpg (US)

R32 - '89 Nissan Skyline

STiG - '16 Renault Trafic 140dCi Energy
90 day: 30.12 mpg (US)

Prius - '05 Toyota Prius
Team Toyota
90 day: 50.25 mpg (US)

Premodded - '49 Ford Freighter
90 day: 13.48 mpg (US)

F-117 - '10 Proton Arena GLSi
Pickups
Mitsubishi
90 day: 37.82 mpg (US)

Ralica - '85 Toyota Celica ST
90 day: 25.23 mpg (US)

Sx4 - '07 Suzuki Sx4
90 day: 32.21 mpg (US)

F-117 (2) - '03 Citroen Xsara VTS
90 day: 30.06 mpg (US)
Thanks: 325
Thanked 452 Times in 319 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanv View Post
Yes, you're transferring the same number of Newtons (force), but you're expending more power while producing those Newtons (thus, less efficiently). That extra power has to go somewhere. Since it isn't going into making the car move, it is going into removing material from the clutch and making it hotter.
The extra power has to go somewhere, but it doesn't have to go into the clutch disc. Just like revving in neutral, the energy goes into spinning the flywheel.

If revving with the clutch dragging created more friction, the car would move. You cannot create more heat in the clutch disc without more friction, and more friction would cause the the car to move, especially as friction comes first, heat is generated from friction.

My Ford has a hand crank handle. How much power can I exert with my arms? Tiny amount of power.

An electric starter takes 80A - cranking a hot engine takes 1 second. That's ~80mah.

Moreover, if a bump start caused the same wear as a 2000rpm start, you would experience the same change in motion. I don't feel a thing as my clutch spinning at ~2000rpm just kisses my flywheel accelerating my engine to the ~90rpm required for it to fire up. Once it fires, I rev match and I'm off.

I'm a semi-pro wood worker, and I think there are a lot of flaws with the sander analogy. When I first built my workshop, I did a feature beam running the whole width of the shop. I started hand sanding the whole thing - then switched to the belt sander - it was barely any faster, just less tiring since the motor was doing the work. The ~2kg weight of the sander means it's exerting more force than I could on a similar sized sanding float and still be able to push it across the surface. The speed of the belt ejects saw dust- hand sanding means regular stopping as your sand paper rides on it's own layer or saw dust reducing it's cutting power. Finally of course, a power tool doesn't stop/start at the end of it's stroke- which costs time.

Yes, I can take off more wood than a sander with just one heavy stroke, I can use a jack plane. I can also use a file/ rasp to take of a lot of material in a single stroke, using lots of pressure, or I can use less pressure and and go back and forth and do less work.

An example of a hand tool moving slower, having to stop and change direction and yet doing the same amount of work:



Power tools are just for lazy people.
__________________







Last edited by oldtamiyaphile; 07-22-2018 at 11:43 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2018, 03:39 AM   #43 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Stubby79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 1,747

Firefly EV - '98 Pontiac Firefly EV
90 day: 107.65 mpg (US)

Little Boy Blue - '05 Toyota Echo
90 day: 33.35 mpg (US)

BlueZ - '19 Nissan 370Z Sport
90 day: 17.19 mpg (US)
Thanks: 75
Thanked 576 Times in 426 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile View Post

Power tools are just for lazy people.
I love power tools! If the job doesn't involve using some form of powered tool/equipment, I'm not interested.

This lazy person is one of the most productive at work.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Stubby79 For This Useful Post:
ldjessee00 (07-23-2018)
Old 07-23-2018, 06:31 AM   #44 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
stefanv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 85

2001 Saturn - '01 Saturn SL1
90 day: 41.68 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3
Thanked 54 Times in 30 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile View Post
If revving with the clutch dragging created more friction, the car would move. You cannot create more heat in the clutch disc without more friction, and more friction would cause the the car to move, especially as friction comes first, heat is generated from friction.
Heat is not generated by friction alone, it is generated by friction times speed-squared. So if I have a 2000 RPM difference in speed of the clutch plates, there will be more heat generated in the clutch than if I had only an 800 RPM difference (6.25 times as much in fact). Consider two rubber blocks against each other, and you try to move one relative to the other, and you can't because the friction is too high. Lots of friction, but no relative speed, so no heat at all.
__________________
Stefan Vorkoetter: Programmer, hobbyist, amateur watchmaker, pilot, and collector of fountain pens, slide rules, calculators, and watches.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2018, 10:17 PM   #45 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
stefanv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 85

2001 Saturn - '01 Saturn SL1
90 day: 41.68 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3
Thanked 54 Times in 30 Posts
Minor Improvements

I haven't done any more significant mods, but have cleaned up a few things.

The first was a partial redo of the grill block and air dam extension. Last year, one grill block was shattered when I hit a cat in the winter, and the air dam extensions got broken a few times. The ABS plastic I used gets brittle in the winter, but I decided I'd stick with that for the grill blocks, as that was really an unusual impact, but find something more flexible for the air dams.

What I ended up doing was buying a black RubberMaid rectangular waste can (about 26" high), and cutting the air dam pieces out of one face of that. I was really impressed with the material, as it is quite thick (about 1/8"), very flexible, yet holds its shape when curved. I was really surprised how flexible the material was once cut out of the can, as the can itself is quite rigid. It's all in the shape.

To replace the grill block, I unscrewed the old patched-up one, and discovered that several of my mounting brackets had become dislodged by the feline collision. I had to reattach most of the ones on one side, and two on the opposite side. I also discovered that there was more damage to the car itself, in that the grill diffuser was broken in a few places. I patched it up with cable ties and a few screws, although in hindsight, I could have removed it since it serves no purpose when the grill is blocked.



Recall from my earlier posts that I had removed the factory radio and replaced it with an amplifier, hidden away behind my tablet display. I had some electrical noise issues, most of which were solved with a BHF (big honkin filter), but a few remained. The most annoying was that the HVAC blower motor sometimes produced crackling noises in the speaker, especially at low fan speed. I made a pair of capacitor-diode filters, one for the blower, and one for the fuel pump (whose whine I could also hear). I installed these across the power and ground lines to each motor.

These are the filters, each consisting of a 100nF capacitor and a 1N4001 diode, soldered to a small board, and enclosed in heatshrink:



They were attached using crimp-on splices, to the blower motor ...



... and fuel pump motor wires:



The blower one completely cured that problem, although the pump whine persists. Maybe it's not the fuel pump after all? (It only occurs when driving at low speeds, and cycles on and off.)

One last improvement was that I finally got around to making a bezel to better integrate the tablet into the instrument panel. It is made from a thin sheet of plastic, painted with matte black Krylon Fusion spray paint:



The bezel is cut to fit exactly into the radio opening (which is about 1/10" bigger than the tablet horizontally, and about 1/4" vertically). I left notches in the bezel to allow access to the tablet buttons (using a flat plastic stick) on the left, and to pry the tablet out from the right. I used a Sharpie to colour the exposed areas of the tablet black.



The bezel is attached to the tablet with double sided tape.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	dam-block.jpg
Views:	302
Size:	168.9 KB
ID:	24671   Click image for larger version

Name:	filters.jpg
Views:	332
Size:	251.0 KB
ID:	24672   Click image for larger version

Name:	filter-blower.jpg
Views:	350
Size:	177.3 KB
ID:	24673   Click image for larger version

Name:	filter-pump.jpg
Views:	346
Size:	221.7 KB
ID:	24674   Click image for larger version

Name:	new-bezel-torque.jpg
Views:	712
Size:	196.6 KB
ID:	24675  

Click image for larger version

Name:	new-bezel-map.jpg
Views:	316
Size:	222.4 KB
ID:	24676  
__________________
Stefan Vorkoetter: Programmer, hobbyist, amateur watchmaker, pilot, and collector of fountain pens, slide rules, calculators, and watches.

  Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to stefanv For This Useful Post:
deluxx (08-17-2018), Ecky (08-14-2018), teoman (08-15-2018)
Old 08-15-2018, 02:37 AM   #46 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
teoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 1,245

A3 - '12 Audi A3
Thanks: 65
Thanked 225 Times in 186 Posts
Nice work on the tablet!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2018, 06:36 AM   #47 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Posts: 6
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Nice work!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 09:28 PM   #48 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
stefanv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 85

2001 Saturn - '01 Saturn SL1
90 day: 41.68 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3
Thanked 54 Times in 30 Posts
Slightly OT, slightly not

Since my car is a Saturn, I though I'd post this photo I took a few nights ago. A different kind of Saturn photo I guess, but then the Saturn was always advertised as "a different kind of car":



That image was assembled from a group of 9 images shot one second apart, aligned and then median stacked. Camera: Canon SX20IS.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	saturn_aligned.png
Views:	283
Size:	45.1 KB
ID:	24757  
__________________
Stefan Vorkoetter: Programmer, hobbyist, amateur watchmaker, pilot, and collector of fountain pens, slide rules, calculators, and watches.

  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to stefanv For This Useful Post:
Joggernot (09-04-2018)
Old 09-04-2018, 04:44 PM   #49 (permalink)
Master Ecomadman
 
arcosine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 1,149

sc1 - '98 saturn sc1
Team Saturn
90 day: 43.17 mpg (US)

Airplane Bike - '11 home built Carp line Tour

rans - '97 rans tailwind

tractor - '66 International Cub cadet 129

2002 Space Odyssey - '02 Honda Odyssey EX-L
90 day: 28.25 mpg (US)

red bug - '00 VW beetle TDI

big tractor - '66 ford 3400

red vw - '00 VW new beetle TDI
90 day: 58.42 mpg (US)

RV - '88 Winnebago LeSharo
90 day: 16.67 mpg (US)
Thanks: 20
Thanked 333 Times in 225 Posts
I stick my tablet right in front of the gauge cluster, so I can navigate and drive at the same time, sc1. I don't have the electrical noise, I do have some ignition noise and have wrapped the PCM and cables in aluminum tape shielding.
__________________
- Tony

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2018, 05:00 PM   #50 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
stefanv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 85

2001 Saturn - '01 Saturn SL1
90 day: 41.68 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3
Thanked 54 Times in 30 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcosine View Post
I stick my tablet right in front of the gauge cluster, so I can navigate and drive at the same time, sc1. I don't have the electrical noise, I do have some ignition noise and have wrapped the PCM and cables in aluminum tape shielding.
The electrical noise isn't coming from my tablet. It's coming from the rest of the car and being picked up by my homebrew audio system. I.e., it's my audio system that is the problem, not the fact that I'm using a tablet. The big honking filter took care of most of it.

__________________
Stefan Vorkoetter: Programmer, hobbyist, amateur watchmaker, pilot, and collector of fountain pens, slide rules, calculators, and watches.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com