Quote:
Originally Posted by Logic
So... the highlighted conditions above don't occur in engines..?
That would explain why engines NEVER wear out... Or do they..?
How does that happen!?
How does oil pressure decrease with engine age if the rotating bearings never have high points that touch through the oil layer, like a water ski hitting a stone that protrudes from the water.
1st;
Lets pretend we are back in the early 19 hundreds before the various additives ubiquitous in the oils of today.
ie: Back when all additives were considered "Mouse Milk".
How did these additives end up in engine oil???
Everyone:
I expect this question to be ignored as usual.
The reason it is ignored is because it is obvious that these additives were tested in labs and then in field tests before being included in the oils we all use.
Avoiding the 'trap' of having to admit that such testing has to have happened for the additives found in today's oils, does not change the fact that they did.
Therefore: Any new additive would have to undergo the the same tests in labs and in field tests. (= real working engines overseen by said labs...)
So far there have been both for oils containing Boric Acid, both in internationally recognized labs and in the engines of early adopters.
It would seem that the anecdotal evidence linked here by me is being... 'mistaken' for posts by me. i would say that that points to my posts not being read properly, but it may also be a purposeful misdirection..?
One of the 1st lab tests that is done for a new additive is a pin on disk test.
One of the ASTM certifications being insisted upon (with 'no testing allowed') is in fact this 'useless' pin on disk test.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...disk-wear-test
Boundary, mixed and hydrodynamic lubrication:
Everybody knows engines wear out.
Cylinders become oval .
There's a step in the cylinder where the top ring stops.
etc.
When a cylinder is examined for wear, the step in the cylinder at the point where the top piston ring changes direction is the 1st place any and every mechanic looks.
So physical evidence of increased wear due to mixed and boundary lubrication is self evident, well known and obvious.
Yet an insistence that all bearing surfaces experience only hydrodynamic wear.
However; here is some peer reviewed published research to ignore: 
Automobile engine tribology — approaching the surface
School of Mechanical Engineering, The University of Leeds
...The piston ring is perhaps the most complicated tribological component in the internal combustion engine.
It is subjected to large, rapid variations of load, speed, temperature and lubricant availability.
In one single stroke of the piston, the piston ring may experience boundary, mixed
and full fluid film lubrication 9 as illustrated in Fig. 1.
Elastohydrodynamic lubrication of piston rings is also possible in both gasoline and diesel engines on the highly loaded expansion stroke after firing 10 .
The historical development of piston ring analysis emphasises the theme of this paper most succinctly.
...In 1959, Furuhama 11 developed a dynamic hydrodynamic analysis of piston ring lubrication for a piston ring profile consisting of a flat central land bounded by two half parabolas, which incorporated the effect of the cyclic variation of both load and sliding speed.
This pioneering effort correctly identified the importance of squeeze film
action in maintaining hydrodynamic load capacity but the likelihood of surface contact was not considered...
A key research effort in the experimental field was that of Hamilton and Moore 12 in the 1970s who developed miniature capacitance film thickness transducers mounted flush in the cylinder wall to measure piston ring film thickness.
They complemented their experiments on a motored engine with a theoretical analysis 13 , which yielded predicted film thickness values up to eight times greater than those measured.
Brown and Hamilton 14 later accounted for this discrepancy by considering the effect of lubricant starvation on predicted film thickness.
Further theoretical analyses subsequently emerged with increasing degrees of sophistication and fewer limiting assumptions e.g. Refs. 15,16 .
One major criticism of these analyses is that they assume the rings operate in either a full fluid film lubrication regime or in an extremely simplified boundary lubrication regime.
No consideration is given to the transitional mixed lubrication regime, where surface roughness can influence hydrodynamic performance or to the nature of the contact occurring between the surfaces in the mixed and boundary regimes...
The wear factor in the boundary lubrication regimn... is determined from bench test rig experiments using actual components and lubricant at operating conditions of load, speed and temperature indicative of boundary lubrication.
This empirical input to the model clearly exposes our lack of fundamental understanding of the wear processes taking place in such tribological interfaces...
...it has been convincingly demonstrated that lubrication of a ‘hydrodynamic’ nature does have a role to play, the modern cam and follower has traditionally been associated with the
boundary lubrication regime where the role of chemical
actions in thin surface films is vital.
This is linked to the additive package of the lubricant and in particular to
extreme pressure additives, of which forms of zinc dialkyldithophosphate ZDDP are the most common.
This serves to emphasise that, at least for parts of the cam and follower cycle, surface interaction takes place.
Note that data for the mid-stroke region has been presented where least wear of
the liner is encountered and where many traditional analyses of piston ring lubrication predict full fluid films and thus no wear.
https://sci-hub.ru/https://www.scien...43164800003756 NB that the touching of solid lubricants as used in extreme pressure additives can NOT be considered Hydrodynamic.
Hydrodynamic lift, like aerodynamic lift, is all about a solid object 'floating' in a liquid due to speed differences between them.
Think of a water skier in shallow water:
If the boat stops he will sink down until the ski touches the bottom...
NB That the replacement of said solid lubricants with a superior solid lubricant film is what BA is all about.
You might also ask yourself:
Why is it that all additives were 'banned' and the companies sued by the FTC,
yet Boric Acid metal surface treatments that are applied via the lubrication system got 'the nod'.
Why the DOE who holds patents on them and why the only additive still being sold as advertised are ones based on BA like MotorSilk CLS bond, etc.. ???
After reading some old threads I have come to realize that all this nonsense is actually about keeping me chasing my own tail rather than doing anything constructive with the knowledge that BA works better than anything else so far added to oils that work in moist, water containing, environments like ambient air.
I now understand the lack of comments. and why.
Silly me! My apologies. |
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1) All the conditions may occur within a 4-stroke automotive engine, but 'all' the highlighted conditions were not present during MotorSilk's engine testing, nor 'benchtop' tribological testing.
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2) MotorSilk's market demographic was owners of a 1971- through- 1977 car, with 241,420-km - to 321,869-km on the odometer, highly sludged, highly varnished, with carbon deposits, all, way beyond their OEM warranty period, and 'statistical average mean' lifetime.
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3) As too 'engine wear', I'd have to know the individual histories of every vehicle in order to factually answer your question, which even you failed to report, when questioned about your ' Boric Toyota ' experience.
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4) Worn-out cars cannot be registered for operation on public roads in The United States. States recommend that residents report any car seen emitting tailpipe smoke. And states will actually help the owner with a down-payment towards a newer car, in better condition, with operable and more comprehensive emissions control technology.
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5) Contemporary automobile engines have oil pumps which are 'governed', providing only enough oil pressure as needed ( 7 psi @ idle for freebeard's air-cooled Volkswagen for instance ). The pump capacity would allow for 'additional' output if needed, up to a point, regulated by a calibrated bypass circuit. Out of warranty vehicles will typically motor on until age 13-years, when they're taken out of service and recycled.
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6) As to 'mouse milk', I've already 'answered' that.
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7) Southwest Research Institutes' testing of MotorSilk did not represent 'real world' driving, and has been criticised for it by Oak Ridge National Laboratory.
They don't consider either the SAE or ASTM engine test protocols representative of actual tribological dynamics/effects.
I tried to explain it to you, but, either you never read it, or you didn't comprehend it ( # 197 ( permalink ).
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8) As to ' pin-on-disc' testing, you won't fine any evidence that I ever said that this ' phonograph ' exercise was ' useless', only that it was ' not an analogue' for automotive engine testing. And that goes for 'ALL' the table-top' tests that I've listed ( never mentiond by you in the past 28-months ).
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9) As to the 'cylinder ridge', you, nor any of the 'mechanics' provide the back-story for the 'origin' of the ridge.
The automakers have no control over how a buyer will behave with their products once they leave the dealer's lot, and if they'll make any attempt to be pro-active in 'maintaining' the car.
EXAMPLE : My dad owned a Chevy Monte Carlo in 1975, in El Paso, Texas. According to the Owners Manual, for 'SUMMER' temperatures encountered in that locale, the engine required an SAE Grade of oil that wasn't even available for sale in El Paso, including the Chevrolet dealership. I shared the info with my dad, and you might imagine the look on the faces of the dealer's parts department employees when we asked them about it. They had to special order it for us ( the dealership itself, was 'violating' the conditions of General Motor's new car warranty of all the cars they sold! ).
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10) If you were a mechanical engineer you'd know that 'motoring tests' of an automotive engine with a dynamometer 'cannot' duplicate the physics of 'fired ' engine tests. Which also goes for ' transmissions', transfer cases, propellor shafts, and differentials. General Motors Research Laboratories is the only company that I know of that is willing to 'get into the weeds ' to ferret out the finer details of automotive physics. And probably because of Dr. Gino Sovran.
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11) As to piston ring 'lubrication region', it has to do with Reynolds number. Motor oil is a 'fluid' and it is governed by all ground rules for viscous fluid boundary-layer dynamics ( critical-roughness, fluid density, and 'velocity' ).
As of 2004, Energy and Environmental Analysis, Inc, Arlington, Virginia, considered 'piston ring' friction to be solely associated with 'hydrodynamic' lubrication ( 50% of total engine 'friction' ). Professor Obert considered 'Mixed-Film Lubrication Region' in my college text in the 1970s.
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12) As to 'cam & follower', the messengers must first elucidate on the 'type' of lifter they're discussing:
Some engines have needle-bearing roller tappets with 'rolling-sliding' lubrication dynamics.
Non-roller cams have only 'sliding' lubrication functions.
MotorSilk has sugar-alcohol Polyol / Diol friction reduction and anti-wear additives to prevent metal-to-metal contact, which have been omitted from the 'Boron' conversation.
In Formula 1 and NASCAR, the most important 'tribological' challenge to 'winning' concerned the engines valvetrain, which was satisfied with the introduction of Polyalphaolefin ( PAO ) 2.5 ' Synfluid', Group IV, synthetic base oil, of 2.5 cSt kinematic viscosity, from CHEVRON-PHILLIPS CHEMICAL.
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13) I've addressed 'hydrodynamic lift already.
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14) 'Boundary lubrication region' is, by definition, a condition where an oil film monolayer is 'ALWAYS' present between opposed metal surfaces.
They are 'plated' with oil. Asperties are separated by the presence of the thickness of the monolayer. There is NO metal-to-metal 'contact'. If there is, you've exceeded the design envelope for the engine ( surface roughness, viscosity, load factor ).
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15) No one has explained what the surface roughness of plated-on boric oxide is, compared to the OEM's engineered surface.
'Too-Smooth' of a surface can 'destroy' lubrication, something tribologist Lake Speed reported with respect to his Joe Gibb's Racing, Nextel NASCAR race car's cam and lifters. The engine didn't last one-hour. When a new engine was installed for the next race, with 'roughened' metal surfaces, lifespan exceeded 200-hours.
( MotorSilk is designed for:
- 10:1 fill ratio ( by volume )
- 33.14-mph ( 53.3-km/h )
- 2,000-RPM max
- 5.31 m/s piston speed
- Load factor 18%
- 21.99-kW power max
- SAE 20W-30 motor oil, @ 115-C
-Oil change every 4,977-miles
- At 22-C ambient temp
- GM 3.60Liter V-6, DOHC engine
- EPA test fuel
- 2,000 miles to see 'effects' ( predicated upon first using MotorSilk 'Step One' Motor Flush ( MSSO ) before installing new oil and MotorSilk Engine Treatment ( MSET )
- 45-minutes of 'warm-up' driving at 66.8-km/h
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16) 'Additives banned' by Federal Trade Commission' :
* Are you talking about over-the-counter, aftermarket oil additives, like STP, MotorKote, LUCAS OIL, etc. ?
* Or OEM motor oil manufacturers?
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17) Extreme Pressure ( EP ) additives are in the oil to 'prevent' metal surfaces from contacting one another, which allows a lower oil viscosity ( responsible for the decrease in fuel consumption ( not 'friction reduction' ).
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18) 'Boric acid getting the nod' :
The premise was that, ZDDP was compromising 3-Way catalytic converter performance and lifespan, involving rare earth metal group metals like Platinum, Rhodium, and Palladium, all 100% imported by the United States, including from our 'enemies' (just as with 'cobalt ' required for all gasoline and diesel refining for the United States).
Curious though is the fact that, 'Boron' is also bad for CATs.
Equally curious is the fact that, the motor oil industry still does not use colloidal boric acid solution as an oil additive, 33-years after American taxpayers PAID for its 'invention' at NASA.
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19) The U. S. Department of Energy ( DOE ) has the final word for approval to grant licenses to private enterprise, for the use of any technology developed in joint, Government - Private Sector scientific collaborations, through the National Labs' Technology Transfer Divisions.
EXAMPLE: Oak Ridge National Laboratories ( ORNL)s ' Jun Qu spent 10-years researching a proprietary anti-wear agent with, General Motors, Royal Dutch Shell Oil Company, and Lubrizol culminating in 2014 in a product giving a 2% fuel economy increase due to the 'Viscosity' reduction it allowed ( hydrodynamics ).
GM thought it could have the technology in production in 2019. The DOE hadn't committed by the time of the article I read about it, from August 19, 2021. ( most of this type of R & D is 'proprietary' and cannot be discussed in the public domain according to ORNL ).
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20) Some considerations as to MotorSilk's efficacy as an mpg improver:
1) At the load factor Southwest Research Institute tested MotorSilk at, total engine energy lost to 'ALL' engine parasitic friction was around 3% of the fuels energy according to the SAE.
2) It takes a 10% reduction in parasitic friction = in order to realize a 2% increase in mpg according to tribologists, mechanical engineers, industrial engineers, etc..
3) If 'Boron' eliminated 'ALL' engine friction, completely, the mpg improvement associated with it could only be 0.6%.
4) The explanation lies within the ASTM D8114 Sequence VIE test protocol, used, and the constraints it places upon what investigators can 'investigate.'
I believe it to be the elephant in the room, which nobody, other than ORNL is willing to dicuss.
Garbage in, garbage out.
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