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Old 12-31-2011, 06:46 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Engineering is the art of compromise.

When you set the bar high at 100 MPG, you foreclose a lot of compromises.

We know 100 MPG is possible. That little rolling coffin that VW built proves it. But VW has made no move to produce it commercially. I suspect the stack-up of compromises makes the vehicle unsalable.

Tandem layout, low-slung, a glorified diesel lawnmower engine. Only way it passes US crash-safety regs is to make it out of horrendously expensive, high maintenance, unrepairable carbon fiber.

In short: a $100,000 economy car that won’t accommodate people less flexible than Olympic gymnasts and has to be coaxed up to 70 MPH. VW has been making cars long enough to know that ain’t gonna fly.

I think drmiller gave up on tandem seating too quickly. To make 100 MPG you gotta keep the frontal area down and that means tandem seating – like a F-14 had. Look at a late model Honda Gold Wing motorcycle. Renowned for its comfortable rear seat. Honda has been playing with this for thirty-odd years and have a very popular product, On a Gold Wing the passenger sits back away from the driver and slightly higher. The seating position is nearly bolt upright. She sit with knees about a foot apart.

I would start trying to make an three-season (no snow or ice) motorcycle, build on what Allert Jacobs and Craig Vetter have done. Problem is that a totally enclosed motorcycle gives bikers – even Evel Knievel wannabes – the willies. They can all visualize the thing either falling (at a stop) or being blown over (by a crosswind) on its side and the rider & passenger are trapped.

I’d start with a tilting tadpole layout.

Welcome to Tilting Motor Works


These guys are selling conversions to standard bikes. Harley-Davidson took it a step further with the “Penster.”

Harley-Davidson shows off Penster leaning trike prototypes

On the Penster, Harley moved the rider further behind the engine and sat him even lower.

OK, take the Penster to the next level, adding a passenger seat that sits as far back as the Gold Wing. Now you can completely fair in the whole motorcycle to get a good Cd. A CdA of under 4 square feet seems easily doable.

On a faired-in, but leaning trike a little height gives the rider plenty of leverage to handle crosswinds.

For an economy vehicle you don’t need anything as powerful as a Gold Wing, Road King, or Ducati Monster, but although a <10 HP engine is probably most efficient, its 40+ MPH acceleration will be sluggish and people will hate it. I’d say a 25 HP diesel is the best compromise. Manual transmission with a reverse.

My guess is we wind up with a 10-12 foot long wheelbase, maybe 50-55 inched high and not more than 40 inches wide. With these proportions we can easily accommodate the Hucho template and get a Cd in the 0.25 range. CdA in the range of 3-4 square feet. Curb weight in the range of 900-1,000 lb.

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Old 12-31-2011, 07:32 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Big Dave, you should build your own car.

Or send me money, and I'll built it the way you want it done.

Meanwhile, there have been a few changes decided upon. For better or worse.

Today I think it will have a full cage of 1.5 of .080 tubing. not just a rollbar, but a cage.

It will have windows which roll up and down, and two doors. To make this work, it will be tandem. Sigh.

I am doing a few things which make this build a LOT easier than most. Once I have the cage in, I'll post some more pics.
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Old 12-31-2011, 08:46 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Been there; done that Part II

Three Wheel Race Car
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Old 01-01-2012, 06:35 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Following this thread, you can see what a challenge the automakers face trying to comply with a huge increase in CAFE standards.
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Old 01-02-2012, 12:09 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Dave View Post
Following this thread, you can see what a challenge the automakers face trying to comply with a huge increase in CAFE standards.
This next year will be telling, but I think we will see increases in sales of EV's. If by 2025, 10% of sales are electric, then the manufactures don't need to change the rest of the fleet at all. The rest of the fleet can average 25 mpg, and the CAFE number works out to 55 MPG[CAFE-speak].
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:11 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Dave View Post

On a faired-in, but leaning trike a little height gives the rider plenty of leverage to handle crosswinds.
Do you remember GM's Lean Machine. I always liked it, and have considered making something similar, but my first enclosed motorcycle was on two wheels.



The modern equivalent is the Persu, which has worse aero.
http://www.flytheroad.com/images/header-home.png

If it tilts, there is not much need for a third wheel. Tilters can still fall over, they still flip when hit from the side, etc. The vehicle dynamics issues were settled decades ago in the racing sidecar world, where tilting sidecars could never beat a three wheel car type.

But the feeling of carving through turns would be pretty appealing. On a canyon road, a crotch rocket would do better, (the last thing you need in transitions is more mass and gyro effect) but at 7-tenths speeds, a leaner could be pleasant -- sort of the GT of the motorcycle world.

With a three cylinder diesel, you'd have great fuel efficiency.

I think you should build it. (See how easily I can spend other people's money?)

In fact, the European Smart Car has a nice compact diesel engine installation... if you did it GM style, you'd be halfway there.

Last edited by Ken Fry; 01-02-2012 at 01:19 AM..
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:39 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Electrics still require a battery breakthrough and one woders where all that electricity will come from.

In case nobody has noticed electric rates have jumped up nearly 50% in the last few years.

The Lean Machine was a good idea and it lends itself to a very compact drive train.
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:39 PM   #68 (permalink)
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The reason electric rates have jumped in my area is the retarded power company executives made all these grandiose plans for expansion based on growth projections that could only possibly, maybe happen if that '90s bubble went on forever. So they sold profitable assets and then built capacity that is now shuttered. Now, of course, we see that bubbles do not go on indefinitely. Do you suppose those execs are going to pay for their dumbass decisions? No. They are probably on the French Riviera right now, tapping their fat Swiss accounts, while the CUSTOMERS are forking over the money to pay for their folly.
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:55 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Uh, Frank.

Indiana has regulated electric rates. Enviromental projects are passed along without even holding hearings.

Nevertheless, electicity has gone up almost as much as gasoline.
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Old 01-02-2012, 06:08 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Can't speak for Indiana but what I described is what happened here.

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