1 Liter Performance How to guide (1 L/100 km = 235 mpg US)

[GreenHornet]

Originally Posted by Vekke

Green Car Congress: XL1 dive and drive: Volkswagen aggressively optimizes for efficiency in its sleek diesel plug-in hybrid

If XL1 needs 8.3 hp at 100 km/h you can calculate the fuel consumption with few rough assumptations at that speed and it will be 1.8-2.2 liters.

Hey Vekke,

Thanks for sharing that article on the XL1 with us. Here is a quote from the article you posted which sheds some more light on the testing cycle and at what speed as well as its fuel consumption.

"The lightweight XL1 (795 kg, 1,753 lbs) delivers NEDC fuel consumption of 261 mpg (0.9 l/100 km) with CO2 emissions of 21 g/km and an all-electric range of 31 miles (50 km) as well as a total range of 310 miles (499 km). The XL1 has a top speed (electronically controlled) of 160 km/h (99 mph); cruising at a constant 100 km/h the XL1 uses only 8.3 hp (6.2 kW). In all-electric mode, the XL1 requires less than 0.1 kWh to cover more than 0.6 miles (one kilometer), based on the NEDC.

0.1 kWh per km equates to 0.161 kWh/mile, or 16 kWh/100 miles. Even accounting for differences resulting from variations in drive cycles, XL1 appears to deliver significantly better electric fuel consumption than the EPA-rated electric or plug-in vehicles on the US market."

Thanks again Vekke on sharing I think this really helps us see what is possible with modern technology and a hybrid design approach to fuel consumption.

What is buzzing in my mind though is can this be bested and for less dinero?

GH

[GreenHornet]

Originally Posted by 3-Wheeler

I presume from your later posts, that you are referring to getting super high mileage from 4 wheels.

To be honest, I think that my Insight, which typically gets 120 mpg in the summer months, is a gas hog.

Why?

I weigh close to 190 lbs, and I need "transportation" to get my body from Point A to Point B.

The Insight weighs in at 1900 lbs, so right off the bat, the ratio of my weight to the cars is a low 1:10 ratio. The Insight engine has to "haul" 10 times my body weight just for the "luxury" of me riding in a "car".

Naturally the progression then becomes, "how do I move myself from one location to another without moving so much mass".

A motorcycle or scooter comes to mind. And then the next question, how much horsepower is required to make this happen.

Craig Vetter seems to feel that his 17 hp Honda step-through has the right balance between weight and hp.

Obviously, a more efficient approach would be a HPV bicycle, but I assume you are not discussing this type of motivation in your vehicle.

Jim.

Hey Jim,

While my intention is to prove that 1 Liter fuel consumption is very possible in a purpose built car as opposed to motorcycle. I am a big fan of the reverse trike 3 wheeled designs and have spent much time on learning about them and helping build them. It is my opinion that a 3 wheeled design when it relates to fuel economy and achieving 1 Liter performance has many advantages over a 4 wheeled platform.

My Tigon hybrid initially started out as a reverse trike but as I have moved farther along I have changed things up to the traditional 4 wheeled platform of the original car. My reasoning was that I felt a 3 wheeled design is better fabricated from the ground up rather than modifying a perfectly good light weight chassis. I also want to keep things as simple as possible so that I can offer people full body bolt on kits for there Spitfires and GT6 chassis in the event people actually like it and would like to replicate and or modify TIGON. They will have the body kit and a detailed plans of the original prototype as well as my help if anyone wants it while working on there own copy.

To get back on topic here what Mr. Vetter is doing I think is great and is what I would like to do but with 4 and 3 wheels. Much can be learned from Mr. Vetter and his contributions to high mileage fuel consumption. Much of it can also be applied as well to 4 and 3 wheeled purpose built and or modified platforms. 17 to 20 hp ICE is what he has deemed as ideal for his applications. I believe that it can be much less with a hybridized drivetrain solution further reducing emissions and fuel consumption. If we drop to around 13hp this gives us enough power to propel a 1,200lb vehicle with low aero of less than .2 85mph with the correct gearing on fossil fuel only. That is more than enough speed to be sufficient here on US freeways.

Now hybridize the small say 2 cylinder or even 1 cylinder and you will have much better acceleration and low end torque for hill climbing and or passing situations than you would with a 3 cylinder 17 to 20 hp ICE engine. It also gives you huge advantages while in the urban environment stop and go traffic which the 3 cylinder can not achieve on its own.

The key is to determine your ICE only top speed then figure out what is the smallest ICE engine you can get that will achieve it comfortably and still be extremely reliable. I have found that around 13hp will comfortably allow 65mph and 85mph pushing the little 2 cylinder diesel nearly to its rpm 3,600 limit. Next optimize it meaning take everything off of it you can that robs HP and hurts engine efficiency such as what they did with Ken's Fiat 600 during its race days. Those accessories can be relocated, modified, combined, and hybridized themselves for greater efficiency and control. Next Hybridize the entire drive train and optimize it for fuel economy. Then once this is done optimize the rest of the vehicle such as eliminating weight down to its practical safe limits preferably 1,200lbs or less, cleaning up the Aero preferably getting under the .2 mark and reducing rolling friction as well as reducing unsprung weight!

In a nut shell this is the 1 Liter fuel consumption strategy and is what will get you to that mark but we need to explore and go into much more detail hence is why I started the thread.

GH..

[GreenHornet]

Hey gang I wanted to talk about the California Commuter car designed by Doug Malewicki back in the day.

While this car is only a single seater and is a reverse trike design it did break a world record actually 2 in fact for MPG at highway speeds. One record was for gas and the other for diesel.

The data below was quoted from the official website and can be viewed here = The California Commuter - World Record Holding 155 MPG Freeway Legal Car!

"Gasoline Record
The 157.192 MPG at 55 MPH gasoline record was set on November 20, 1980. Malewicki drove the California Commuter from Los Angeles to San Francisco where the machine was featured at the San Francisco International Auto Show. Just 2.87 gallons to travel 451.3 miles! (Note that a 20 MPG vehicle would use a little over 22 gallons to drive the same distance!)"

"Diesel Record
The 156.53 MPG at 56.3 MPH diesel record was set on November 30, 1981. A year later, Doug drove the California Commuter from Anaheim, California to Las Vegas, Nevada where it was featured at the SEMA Show (Specialty Equipment Manufacturers Association). This time Guinness people were on hand to document the run, so with their help we also obtained accurate average speed data. The mileage for a diesel should be better than for gasoline - except driving to Las Vegas involves climbing two long mountain passes for a total of 7,993 feet of elevation gains. Just 1.68 gallons of diesel to travel 263.4 miles!"

If we study this vehicle we can see some important characteristics.

#1. reduced size and weight
#2. reduced engine sizing
#3. reduced frontal area
#4. Tear drop shaped
#5. 3 wheel platform

Simply taking this vehicle and creating a mild hybrid design one would be able to possibly exceed the 1 liter fuel economy mark! plans are available for this do it yourself build project on the website link I provided. Other possibilities can easily be explored and implemented as well.

This vehicle is being updated and improved upon as I write this post. They are building an electric updated version that will have 25% decrease in coefficient of drag to further increase mpge. This can be viewed here at this link = eCC - Totally Green. Cutting Edge.

There where also initial plans that never got of the idea list to make a three passenger version and can be viewed here = C2C Pumpkin Seed

Now I know that 157mpg is a ways away from 235mpg however again I want to point out this was with no hybrid technology like we see in the VW XL1 or with highly optimized aerodynamics like in the XL1! The other point I want to point out is that the vehicle had a top speed of 80mph and these tests were at normal driving speeds not the 10-15mph eco marathon speeds. With modern materials, current aerodynamic knowledge, and engine technology there really is no reason why 1 liter performance options can not exist in our modern fast paced world. In fact the improved electric version of the California Commuter is estimated at having better than a 400 mpg equivalency while going at highway speeds!

The last point and maybe the most important of them all is the technology to achieve 1 liter fuel economy is here now and does not cost an arm and a leg to have!

GH

[mikeyjd]

Thanks for the thread GH. It brings up allot of ideas that I find quite interesting. I'm wondering how practical some of this stuff "could" be made if it was enough of a priority. I drive a fairly fuel efficient vehicle, but I would love to drive something that could get triple digits on a regular basis (1liter could be considered a long term goal lol).

[GreenHornet]

Hi Mikeyjd,

I am glad that you stopped by and are finding the topic interesting. I think the practical issue is in the eyes of the beholder. Everyone has different wants and needs what is practical for me may not be practical for you. What is the most important first and foremost is that its safe and legal to drive. All else is added luxury and individual wants and or desires.

If you would love to drive something that gets consistent triple digits then check out my TIGON Diesel Electric Hybrid kit car project. This is the most straight forward way to achieve triple digits without braking the bank account.

My goal is 1 Liter fuel economy with TIGON and this thread was partly made so that I could document and show the first prototype MPG testing and results. This will greatly help readers understand what it takes to achieve this level of performance in the real world at real world speeds.

Many of the notes and research being compiled in this thread I will put together in a much more detailed and refined guide book that I will offer as a companion to TIGON or simply as a great reference to practical 1 liter fuel economy for people who would like to study the topic.

So stay tuned,

GH

[mikeyjd]

Originally Posted by GreenHornet

Hi Mikeyjd,

I am glad that you stopped by and are finding the topic interesting. I think the practical issue is in the eyes of the beholder. Everyone has different wants and needs what is practical for me may not be practical for you. What is the most important first and foremost is that its safe and legal to drive. All else is added luxury and individual wants and or desires.

If you would love to drive something that gets consistent triple digits then check out my TIGON Diesel Electric Hybrid kit car project. This is the most straight forward way to achieve triple digits without braking the bank account.

My goal is 1 Liter fuel economy with TIGON and this thread was partly made so that I could document and show the first prototype MPG testing and results. This will greatly help readers understand what it takes to achieve this level of performance in the real world at real world speeds.

Many of the notes and research being compiled in this thread I will put together in a much more detailed and refined guide book that I will offer as a companion to TIGON or simply as a great reference to practical 1 liter fuel economy for people who would like to study the topic.

So stay tuned,

GH

That depends on how much is in the account though I am curious what you think this can be done for even though it's hard to imagine it being cheap. Obviously people allot of people on here, including myself, are budget minded so it would have to pencil out. TIGON is a good name for a beastly hybrid though

[Frank Lee]

Isn't it odd that Doug Malewicki has had his Cali Commuter since 1980 and it's just been sitting in storage?

[GreenHornet]

Originally Posted by mikeyjd

That depends on how much is in the account though I am curious what you think this can be done for even though it's hard to imagine it being cheap. Obviously people allot of people on here, including myself, are budget minded so it would have to pencil out. TIGON is a good name for a beastly hybrid though

Ya I happen to like the name TIGON also which is a hybrid cat and is one of my best friends names who also was mixed racially. So it made sense to name the car this :-)

So the Cost will be varied initially depending on what you or I can get the donor vehicle for. Luckily there are a good deal of Triumph Spitfires just waiting to be converted for a fair price. The Triumph GT6 is much harder to come by at a bargain. I was fortunate enough to pick up 2 GT6 cars one that was rusted out which is quite common on these cars and the other in really good condition. For me the rust did not matter at all since I was not going to be using the original body at all. I was able to get that vehicle for $500.00 locally. After I sold off parts that I would not need and got the chassis sandblasted and rust proofed I think I am into the project $100.00. So for a completed chassis, steering components, complete front suspension, and complete rear end I am into the vehicle $100.00 thus far! That included getting it towed to my house which was free through AAA. Now I have seen Spitfires for around $1000.00 completely running and in good condition up to $2000.00. These vehicles you could just unbolt the heavy steel body with 10 bolts and purchase my aero body kit then use those same 10 bolts and bolt the new modern light weight aero body kit on in less than 3 hours with proper tools and space of course! The body kit for me to produce I am estimating at around $1,200.00 and out the door around $1,500.00 that includes all glass and my labor. Then you would need the diesel engine which can be bought for around $1,750 new and the (ISA) Integrated starter alternator and all control electronics. Figure another $1,500 for all the ISA stuff and you are around $3,250 for a brand new hybrid power plant. Of course you can save money and get a used diesel on Ebay or from a supply warehouse to cut costs by a grand or more. I can customize any diesel engine for the hybrid components however it will cost a little more for this since I have to start over on the configuration for each individual engine which would be a little different per make and model. The transmission I can find for cheap and I can rebuild it to the individual needs and out the door for under $1,000.00. All the little custom parts flywheel adapter, engine mounts, and driveline etc. is pretty cheap actually.

Another option to further cut costs and simply get triple digit fuel economy is just go diesel only initially and as funds are saved add the hybrid stuff on later. This would save you the ISA components, battery/cap bank and plug in charger if desired! If you never have a need or desire to drive over 80mph than the diesel only may be the ticket for a budget triple digit vehicle that seats 2 comfortably.

The core Spitfire/GT6 components are pretty cheap and plentiful. Even the performance Aluminum alloy upgraded versions are not priced all that bad and cut weight by a lot! You can easily sale off your stock Spit/GT6 engine and transmissions for a good price to cover a lot of the costs for upgrading and replacing all the little stuff. There are strong Triumph owners clubs in North America who are happy to take good working parts especially engines and transmissions. If you are looking for inexpensive than go stock everything and be out the door for well under $10,000. If you do not have the time to source parts and bolt it all together pay me the time and labor costs and I can do it for you! The labor costs will not be a lot since I have all ready spent the time on the prototype building the necessary relationships and where to go to find all the necessary parts at the best possible pricing. Not to mention the fabrication of the custom parts and machine shop time and labor are complete.

Now from there cost is completely dependent on the individual. We can go complete stock to cut costs or customize with performance parts as the individual sees fit. The main things that I will do to every car is replace all the nuts & Bolts, all the washers and gaskets, Suspension, and brake components new. If you want stock suspension non adjustable then costs will be less if you want fully customizable ride and height for your suspension than add more dinero! Same with the brakes if you want a 4 pot light weight alloy calipers up front budget more money but if you are happy with the single pot stock calipers costs will be less.

I will have all the pricing laid out so no hidden costs BS! In fact you will have access to all the parts suppliers so you will know all the costs for the parts as well so no parts markups ever! The parts price is what it is end of story. You pay as we make progress so no worries of huge money up front. I will let you know where we are at with the progress via email, and video attachments or heck anyone is more than welcome to come by if they would like to see it take shape and they have the time off from work and busy lives. Besides I enjoy the company it gets lonely designing high mileage cars on your own LOL

So will TIGON pencil out well I think it depends on the individual and what a highly reliable 3 digit car is worth to them. Currently no car or hybrids gas or diesel that you can purchase in North America can give you this fuel economy or even close to it. The only one in the world right now is the VW XL1 and good luck getting that on this side of the pond let alone for a price that is affordable. In fact for the price of the XL1 I could probably build a budget house out in the country I am assuming.

Currently your other option is trying to build a hybrid from do it yourself plans. The best one out there in my opinion for fuel economy and real world driving is the R.Q. Riley XR3 reverse trike diesel or hybrid version. However like all do it yourself builds be prepared to work hard and take a lot of time to complete and get correct. The XR3 plans are very well done and detailed and really would allow a skilled person with enough time and ability to complete it or for higher costs sub it out to the necessary professionals. Compare this to other do it yourself plans and you will feel cheated as they are often out dated with little detail and leave much to ponder! Now there is a good deal of fabrication work to do. You can sub out all of this or any part you don't want to tackle but be prepared to pay for it. They make it sound cheap believe me its not even with all the solid works and cad drawings done and provided in the plans. If you need to sub it out you will pay for it for sure. You have to pay CNC setup fees for all custom parts which is not cheap and a general machine shop for the less complex pieces. The costs add up quick especially when you are doing a one off piece again depending on shop not cheap anymore.

This is why I decided to go with a conversion design over a complete custom prototype. Keep the custom pieces to an absolute minimum, besides I really like the idea of taking a rusted out bodied car and giving it a new lease on life. There is noting wrong recycling perfectly good parts in my opinion its a much greener solution and one I completely believe in. Especially since I am not rich and don't ever plan on being. This means I have to be more creative and find better cost effective solutions for me and people like me. This is exactly what I am doing with the TIGON vehicle.

My intentions with TIGON is for the average Joe like me who keeps there cars a long time to be able to have a car geared for high mileage that is highly reliable and saves you money every mile! A car in which is incredibly customizable and can be tailor made to the individual. The other point is I make it extremely easy to get it up and rolling. With a full kit car you do not have to worry about composite work at all. Anyone who has ever tried this on a full body kit scale knows this is no easy task! Next there is no welding or machining needed just bolt it up! I am designing this so that anyone can be up and running in the quickest time possible whether they want to bolt it together or want me to do it for them.

TIGON is a kit car being built for fuel economy pure and simple that will allow you to drive at freeway capable speeds in any state or providence in North America and enjoy not only triple digit fuel economy but decreased overall maintenance costs over the life of the car

I hope this gives you a solid idea of the costs involved and flexibility you will have with my design. I am really easy going and up front just tell me your thoughts and ideas and I will find the best cost effective route and solution for your situation.

I just want us all rich or poor to be able to have good fuel economic options so that is why I am so focused on getting TIGON completed and designing it as a kit for anyone like me who could see a need for it.

Sorry for this this looooong post but hopefully you get a solid idea of the costs involved and the flexibility anyone will have in the individual finished kit cars.

Feel free to PM me anytime for further questions and I will be happy to explain more in depth my thoughts and ideas moving forward.

GH

[GreenHornet]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Isn't it odd that Doug Malewicki has had his Cali Commuter since 1980 and it's just been sitting in storage?

Ya I find it hard to believe a vehicle the has 2 world records for fuel economy has been just sitting in storage. But if we are looking at practical real world driving in many ways it does not surprise me. I don't want to sound as though I am completely dissing the design but if I am a potential buyer or builder there are some things that jump out immediately in my mind. As a designer myself I am always open to critique as I believe there is always ways to improve a vehicle design. Unbiased input is what helps you understand and make the appropriate changes for the better.

So to me when I look at the vehicle I see it being designed for only one purpose and that was to break records and not really for real world use in sunny mild climates. You can hype it up in the plans and say what you want but the car design speaks something completely different. The vehicle is what you would find in the urban category of the Shell Eco Marathons not on our roads. To make a successful highly fuel efficient vehicle it has to be safe and practical. You can not stray to far from the norm or it simply will not be accepted. So can a highly fuel efficient vehicle be designed and built that does not have to go to such extremes to achieve its MPG goals? You bet it just takes a lot of time, patience, perseverance, and a solid game plan executed properly!

So lets look at this design in detail:

#1. Its a single seater tiny single seater at that. There is nothing wrong technically with this since the vast majority of driving situations in single passenger. However I feel like the same fuel economy and better can be had with 2 or more seats so why not be able to share the highly fuel efficient ride with your friend or significant other!

#2. The vehicle has an open cockpit design. Again this is fine if you live in sunny southern California where the designer resides. Now if you are like me and live in the Pacific Northwest this type of car becomes very undesireable the first time it pours down rain on you and believe me it rains often up here you will park it forever lol :-) What about the midwest or northeast where whether extremes are normal? Good luck driving it in a snow blizzard! Shoot even the southeast Florida for example has some major down pours which would be no fun while cruising on the freeway.

#3. The steering mechanism for me personally I just would not feel comfortable with joysticks but that is just my opinion.

#4. It is really not that all dynamic if you look at the new electric version being designed it is much better and tries to address many of the original aero flaws!

#5. To small of weight don't get me wrong while low weight is very important not enough can be just as bad or worse in my opinion. I have found that even at a light weight of 1,200lbs triple digit fuel economy can be attained. This thing weighs under 300lbs! I would not want to get hit or end up in a wind storm with this vehicle pure and simple!

#6. Gotta use a helmet! I am just to lazy to put on a helmet every time I need to go some where but that is just me. Shoot I might as well get a 2 wheel motorcycle and at least be able to take my wife for a ride on the back! No can do with this reverse trike you are solo all the time...

#7. It looks like a rocket ship out of jimmy neutron! Fine for NASA Pilots but for the majority of people and me personally I think we would require something that looks a bit more mainstream and modern.

So after looking at it more in depth, ya I can see why it was garaged and also why it is being updated. I am looking forward to his new updated electric version though. I also thought his 3 seated passenger design that never got built could have done pretty well and been much more practical.

GH..

[mikeyjd]

Originally Posted by GreenHornet

The body kit for me to produce I am estimating at around $1,200.00 and out the door around $1,500.00 that includes all glass and my labor.

That sounds reasonable for a design with a cd of .13-.18 made of light wieght/durable materials. How far along are you on the design and would you sell the body kit by itself? My thought would be your kit on spitfire chasis with an xfi motor and tranny. My goal would be a project I could do quite a bit of my own work and end up with a triple digit commuter for less than $4,000. I know that $10,000 for what you are talking about is probably just about giving away your labor. Let me to show you my perspective. I own 3 vehicles currently: 93 Ford Festiva (paid $1,000) 91 1ton diesel pickup (paid $2,500) 99 Dodge Intrepid (paid $1,000). All these vehicles run well with no complaints. I do all maintenance myself. When I talk about it penciling out I'm referring to the idea of saving money, if it's long term that's ok. I guess I can't picture how it could make sense from a financial comparison perspective. I think what you have here is more for a niche hobbyist market than for the penny pinching gas miser, and for that reason I'm out. Thanks for your time.