AirFlow BulletTruck Project (aerodynamic, modified Class 8 transport doubles MPG)

[stillsearching]

Originally Posted by Shepherd777

I just like to build them. Not drive them for weeks at a time.

Thanks for the tip! I have never heard of that "trade dress protection". I will have to research that.

The beauty of trade dress protection is that it sorta-almost can be applied retroactively as well - meaning what you already have done should still be eligible. You just have to make a very similar shape in the future OR keep that shape alive, ie put out something onto the market soon afterwards, which keeps that shape. Basically once you have invested money into "establishing" a shape, which is meant to be associated with your business, as far as I understand you can then apply to have it officially registered. As long as nobody contests it in the year or two after (and if nobody else made a truck shaped quite like this, they wouldn't) it should be yours.

You can send donations for this consultation to blah blah blah. ^_^


Have you considered making something like an actual commercial sale of truck front and sides possibly something alterable to work on multiple trucks? I dont have alot of faith in my own building abilities but I can bolt things together. I would love something like this, provided it weren't excessively expensive. As it is i'm wanting to at some point acquire a class 6-8 truck primarily for moving my own stuff... hearing nutso quotes by truckers who want like $3500 to move an empty semi trailer 300 miles (one guy offered for $750, but even at that, if I have ten or so I want eventually moved, and I see running working semis literally in the few thousand dollar range at times on craigslist, it gets me thinking...) as I have a need for alot of storage, and where they are available for cheap is not where I need the storage, I figure i'd rather buy something, haul it myself going way slow (would love to hear a 40mph mpg quote from the truck - as i'd drive 40 if it helped, more time than money) then resell the truck and such afterwards. Yet 5mpg averages on older trucks and deadheading still would eat up most of the cost.

Mostly I either see old flatnose semis for the cheapest (wonder whether starting there would make the aero harder or easier), or I see things like airbraked school busses for tolerable prices, which I figure could probably have the shell removed and a fifth wheel put on the frame rails to move my trailers, though i'm not sure if i'd encounter length limit problems starting there... I literally only need to move empty trailers around for cheap at tare weight, if the aero load can be reduced by these methods the lower power of some class 6/7 trucks becomes irrelevant. Possibly even a gasoline truck becomes more feasible. (my main fear with big diesels is reliability/getting such a rig stranded halfway to somewhere, a single tow charge would kill everything, yet a gas schoolbus i can replace the engine with a replacement longblock for $1100 most of the time... long as it has a big fifth wheel and air brake support)

[bikeprof]

UNLESS you have a shipping contract, do not buy a class 8 truck.
Unless you have too much money and too many toys to haul around, better let others do their job.
Most do it at a loss but keep doing it 'cause if they stop, they are ruined.
Some money in pocket is better than none...

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by Shepherd777

We have decided that the new truck will be electromotive power. A Cummins diesel engine powering a generator powering hub motors. No tranny or differential...

...It would allow the diesel to run at a constant speed, except when going down hill, where it would idle.

The mechanical losses from a 13 speed transmission and a monster size differential churning all that oil with those monster gears are not very efficient.

I will start by stating that I have no direct experience with the mechanical efficiencies of heavy truck transmissions. Having said that, I would imagine that everything is fairly relative, meaning that from a % loss standpoint shouldn't a car's drivetrain be roughly the same efficiency as a heavy truck?

What you are proposing to do would be similar to what GM does with the Volt when it is running in it's "Range Extending" mode (gasoline engine running a generator to drive the electric motor once the main battery is depleted). The generator runs at fairly steady speed to generate the power required to drive the vehicle.

One thing the Volt does, however, is directly couple the engine to the drive wheels through a simple transmission linkage at higher speeds. This is because there's a lot of loss involved in converting mechanical energy into electrical energy and then back into mechanical energy again.

I would think your concept would work really well if you were able to couple it with a transmission and differential gearing that allowed a 1:1 transmission ratio while cruising to minimize losses. This way the electric motors could be used around town and geting up to speed, and once on the highway with the cruise control set the engine could couple directly to the wheels for maximum efficiency.

As another poster commented, I don't think the diesel locomotives use electric propultion for its efficiency, but more for the low end torque characteristics of the electric motor, getting a train moving from rest. Some large ships have used this method as well, but many that do have done it to adapt rotatable "pods" that house the drive motor and propeller. These pods are directable, allowing the ship to steer based on the direction of the propeller's thrust, making navigation in tight spaces much easier. There's a slight efficiency payback with not having to steer by dragging a rudder through the propeller's wake as well.

Absolutely brilliant work, by the way!

[seifrob]

Originally Posted by Shepherd777

...But yes, the real reason that truck was retired, is that we do have a better project in mind. That being our next-generation, "scratch-built" rig. That, and the "I hate the trucking" part. I just like to build them. Not drive them for weeks at a time...

So is it for sale? for rent? It would be shame to let it rust... (plus you can get more real world performance from whoever drives it..

[Shepherd777]

Originally Posted by Blue Angel

I will start by stating that I have no direct experience with the mechanical efficiencies of heavy truck transmissions. Having said that, I would imagine that everything is fairly relative, meaning that from a % loss standpoint shouldn't a car's drivetrain be roughly the same efficiency as a heavy truck?

What you are proposing to do would be similar to what GM does with the Volt when it is running in it's "Range Extending" mode (gasoline engine running a generator to drive the electric motor once the main battery is depleted). The generator runs at fairly steady speed to generate the power required to drive the vehicle.

One thing the Volt does, however, is directly couple the engine to the drive wheels through a simple transmission linkage at higher speeds. This is because there's a lot of loss involved in converting mechanical energy into electrical energy and then back into mechanical energy again.

I would think your concept would work really well if you were able to couple it with a transmission and differential gearing that allowed a 1:1 transmission ratio while cruising to minimize losses. This way the electric motors could be used around town and geting up to speed, and once on the highway with the cruise control set the engine could couple directly to the wheels for maximum efficiency.

As another poster commented, I don't think the diesel locomotives use electric propultion for its efficiency, but more for the low end torque characteristics of the electric motor, getting a train moving from rest. Some large ships have used this method as well, but many that do have done it to adapt rotatable "pods" that house the drive motor and propeller. These pods are directable, allowing the ship to steer based on the direction of the propeller's thrust, making navigation in tight spaces much easier. There's a slight efficiency payback with not having to steer by dragging a rudder through the propeller's wake as well.

Absolutely brilliant work, by the way!

Hi Blue Angel -

You said: "I will start by stating that I have no direct experience with the mechanical efficiencies of heavy truck transmissions. Having said that, I would imagine that everything is fairly relative, meaning that from a % loss standpoint shouldn't a car's drivetrain be roughly the same efficiency as a heavy truck?"

Yes, I generally agree with your thesis here. But remember, Class 8 trucks usually have TWO monster differentials

"What you are proposing to do would be similar to what GM does with the Volt when it is running in it's "Range Extending" mode (gasoline engine running a generator to drive the electric motor once the main battery is depleted). The generator runs at fairly steady speed to generate the power required to drive the vehicle."

Yes, exactly correct. Being an old Chevy guy, I could do no less. I may ruffle some feathers here, but I believe GM usually has the best technology. I mean except for the angular, sharp, faceted body of the 2014 Vette, of course. Still, I'd give my left one, to own one of those.

"One thing the Volt does, however, is directly couple the engine to the drive wheels through a simple transmission linkage at higher speeds. This is because there's a lot of loss involved in converting mechanical energy into electrical energy and then back into mechanical energy again. I would think your concept would work really well if you were able to couple it with a transmission and differential gearing that allowed a 1:1 transmission ratio while cruising to minimize losses. This way the electric motors could be used around town and geting up to speed, and once on the highway with the cruise control set the engine could couple directly to the wheels for maximum efficiency."

Most all proposed and test versions of Class 8 hybrid trucks use this configuration that you are referring to. As you are probably aware, this is called a Parallel Hybrid Architecture. And all of those folks use your basic premise for this stating "there's a lot of loss involved in converting mechanical energy into electrical energy and then back into mechanical energy again." I completely agree with this statement. But there are also ways to mitigate, or even negate, these losses. Honest.

But, the Parallel Hybrid configuration is also vastly more complicated, costly, and heavier than a Series Hybrid. And the ICE has to have enough torque to operate an 80,000 lb. rig. So in a Parallel Hybrid, the ICE is a full-size 13-15 Liter diesel engine.

One drive-train manufacturer is even proposing a Dual-Mode Hybrid configuration. But again, extreme complexity, cost, and increased weight are my main issues. And they require a full-size 13-15 Liter ICE.

I told one of the very senior engineers and Vice Presidents at one of the drive-train manufacturers that they were doing their Class 8 hybrid projects like it was the Manhatten Project. I just feel that their architecture complexity and weight is not warranted. Not to mention the cost. I believe I can do better. Time will tell.



AFAIK, nobody is proposing a pure Series Hybrid configuration in a Class 8 truck except me. I really can't elaborate why I believe in Series Hybrid, when all of my competitors believe in Parallel Hybrid or a Dual-Mode Hybrid. But I do believe my reasons are absolutely valid. Like Bruce Willis / John McClane said in the first Die Hard movie, while speaking with Sergeant Al Powell on the terrorists two-way radios, "Listen fast. This is a party line, and the neighbors have itchy trigger fingers."

The large Class 8 OEM's (the terrorists) monitor this site, and I do not want to divulge any more ideas and concepts to them than I already have with the previous truck.

"As another poster commented, I don't think the diesel locomotives use electric propultion for its efficiency, but more for the low end torque characteristics of the electric motor, getting a train moving from rest."

I was always under the assumption that diesel electric locomotives used this method because nobody (at least at the time when diesel electric architecture was introduced in the 1950's) could build clutches and transmissions that could handle the ever increasing post World War II payloads. But one of the truly great by-products of electromotive propulsion is efficiency.

[Shepherd777]

Originally Posted by seifrob

So is it for sale? for rent? It would be shame to let it rust... (plus you can get more real world performance from whoever drives it..

I sold the BulletTruck to a collector in Minnesota. It is a heated garage there with all of his other custom vehicles, so it is definitely not rusting. Just the opposite. He is saving it for posterity.

He had his crew paint it Ferrari red. It is not back together yet. He intends to install all new sponsor decals on it when completed.

The last I heard he was going to run it briefly during the summer. And possibly drive it to the Bonneville Salt Flats hauling his Bonneville race vehicles trailer there. That should make for quite an entrance, even for Bonneville.

When he picked it up, he left my house in Connecticut and deadheaded (drove with an empty trailer) to Youngstown, Ohio, where he loaded. He then drove home loaded to Minnesota and he averaged 15.1 mpg doing so. Mostly level grades on this route, of course.

[Blue Angel]

Thanks for the thorough reply, Shepherd! Looks like you've "covered the bases" and just need to put your ideas into motion!

Originally Posted by Shepherd777

The large Class 8 OEM's (the terrorists) monitor this site, and I do not want to divulge any more ideas and concepts to them than I already have with the previous truck.

I totally respect that! I look forward to seeing your future projects, once you have them ready for prime-time and fully protected that is.

[WagonyGuy]

I was always under the assumption that diesel electric locomotives used this method because nobody (at least at the time when diesel electric architecture was introduced in the 1950's) could build clutches and transmissions that could handle the ever increasing post World War II payloads.

And that how could you slip a clutch like that at 1-2mph? Electric motors will (happily?) hum along at 15rpm without ill effects. I think that's the biggest reason to use them, complete separation from an ICE that can't rev below a certain RPM, the electrics can take its time getting up to any given speed.

[hardhatz]

Just my humble opinion....

Congratulations on some very nice work!
It is particularly impressive that someone who doesn't care to drive them would put all this effort into such a huge undertaking.

Some thoughts:

1. Big rig fuel mileage strategies that rely too much on hypermiling tactics are only entirely relevant when time stands still and the world is flat. In real life in the business of trucking, there are many aggravating factors. For example, one MPH less speed adds an hour to a coast-to-coast run. So, if you arrive at the other coast on Friday night after the receiver closes for the weekend, you have just shot yourself in the foot. If-by driving 65-you arrive Friday morning, and reload back out the same day, you could be 2000 revenue-earning miles away by Monday morning. This is not an isolated example. I drive, it happens all the time.
Focus on the technology. Getting 14 MPG under ideal and atypical conditions is interesting, but there would be a lot more credibility if you also included real-world numbers.

2. Congratulations on running a 13-speed! The industry has really drank the Kool-aid on the Big 9 & 10-speed Lie. It's a hard cold fact that the lowest BSFC on an engine is only about 150-200 RPM wide.
However, most 13-speeds are RTO. (I'm assuming yours is as well) RTOxxx13's are overdriven in 13th, and trucks are usually geared to cruise there. 13th gear loads torque onto six gears, 2 countershafts, and several bearings. Only in 12th does the torque path run from input to drive yoke uninterrupted. RTOs should be geared to cruise in 12th. Don't feel bad, about 99% of rigs were built wrong, and the average new-truck sales guy is a blithering idiot.

3. The electric drive idea will not be efficient. The driven motor is most efficient only at a certain RPM. Locomotives are built with different gear ratios, based on expected use. They are significantly disadvantaged anywhere outside that ideal speed. To be more specific, the Diesel/generator must be operated at full capacity even though the driven motor may be turning at a small fraction of its efficient RPM. So, your engine-to-wheel RPM ratio goes completely screwy, and you are under full power. Once again, if the world was flat.....
If you are in love with electricity, use it to replace the hydraulic in the power-steering.

4. Consider radical redesign of suspension, as all vertical motion/vibration caused by road irregularities devours forward energy. Independent maybe, with bus-type IFS, and DeDion-type rear?...

5. How about an air-bagged front end to regulate front body-to-road gap?

6. Axle stub-mounted non-rotational front wheel fairings.

7. Charm the rolling-stock folks into building a "1 1/2-plex" low-profile front tire/rim system. (halfway between a single and a duplex) About 8000 lb capacity.

8. Centrifugal engine oil filter to keep oil free of abrasive particles.

9. A single-screw with tag axle does not provide the integrity needed in any but ideal situations, and I consider it cheating. Keep it honest.

[SwamiSalami]

just awesome, man! the baby seals are rejoicing!