AMERICANS: Would you buy a 125cc motorcycle for the street?
 

Just trying to see where we stand here, and if there is actually any market interest for 125cc bikes in Merica’, or if I’m the only crazy person. I love tiny engined motorcycles, they allow you to hoon the absolute crap out of them and not break laws. Even after stepping down from a VFR 800 to a CBR 250(admittedly a four cylinder ;)), I still find myself wanting a bike I can hoon more. A well executed launch with the 250(read: 10,000 rpm) can get it to 60 mph in about 5.5 seconds. That is not much time to ENJOY the acceleration. And that’s 60 mph, most roads around me are 45 mph speed limits, and I don’t feel comfortable doing 15 over. Then after accelerating, I find that it’s just got way more engine than I need even though it’s only a 250cc! I want a 125cc!

So now here is the problem, I want 5+ gears, fuel injection, and LIQUID COOLING. The Honda grom comes close, but it’s only got 4 gears and is air cooled. There is an aftermarket 5 speed transmission for a not unreasonable $500, but the bike is still air cooled, a deal breaker. But wait, the exact kind of bike actually exists, and is still being made and sold, just not here in America.

I am currently drooling over two 125cc bikes at the moment, the 2008+ Honda CBR 125R, and the 2007+ Honda XL125 Veradero. The CBR is just a plain LIQUID COOLED fuel injected 125cc single with 6 gears. The veradero on the other hand also features liquid cooling and fuel injection, but this baby is rocking a 125cc V-TWIN capable of 12,000 RPM! Adding to the cool factor it has air cooled looking cylinders. It is only a 5 speed, and would require ridiculous regearing to make me happy with cruising rpms(sprockets are available), but it’s still awesome. Really I would want the Veradero’s engine in the CBR, it could be a VTR 125.

The problem lies with production costs, and therefore pricing. People automatically relate engine size to price, not justifying these tiny engined bikes. However, you should consider an element of fun factor as well, if a bike would let you have more fun, wouldn’t you be willing to pay more for it? Another thing, these bikes are capable of doing 75 mph, which makes all those “are 250s able to go on highways?” videos kind of silly.

Realistically, I could see the CBR 125 priced at $4,500, and the XL125 priced at $5,500.

So let’s hear it Americans, is this a hopeless pipe dream and am I doomed to wait 14 YEARS until I can import one of these bad boys, or are you going to make me happy?

I'd take a Honda trail 125 anyday, for the trail of course.

I've had a ton of fun on what I think was a 125 dual sport. That said, I don't see the point of it. My CBR600 gets between 40-70 MPG depending on how I ride it. If the thing had taller gearing, it could get even better. A used one can probably be had for $2k.

Sure, I'd ride a 125 and probably like it just fine. But if my 600 and a 125 were magically sitting in my garage, I don't think the 125 would get much time. Heck, your VFR 800 would probably get more time than my 600.

So no, I wouldn't buy a 125, but I think one should exist. It's a hard sell in the US where fuel is cheap and pockets are deep. Motorcycles in the US are a luxury, not affordable transportation like many other places.

I am intrigued by that Royal Enfield Himalayan for $4500. I also like the Yamaha TW200 for the same $4500. I know the TW200 holds it's value well and is really reliable and simple. The Himalayan seems to have a lot more for the price but is untested.

My first bike was a 1966 Suzuki 120. Of course, in 1965, I weighed 185 lbs.
Today, I would want a 650 or larger.

Hmm...I don't see either listed on Honda Canada's website...don't pay attention, but I know there are used CBR 125's kicking around. Were they not available in the US?

If you live in a very large city like I do then the smaller cc bikes are much nicer.

I get to my destination much faster in my 200cc chinese motocross looking bike than my 1200cc bmw. You can just filter through traffic much easier.


My friend has a 750cc honda and a 125cc honda scooter. (He is a lawyer and has to wear a suit). He says he enjoys the 750cc more BUT the scooter is more convenient. His shoes and pants get a lot less dirty with the scooter and he has a ton of luggage space.

I wish i also has a scooter :)


Ps: i live in istanbul where there is an excess of people that are not really mentally or culturally fit to be on the road.

I own a 1974 125cc enduro that is street legal,
Does that count?

I would own one and ride it around town, probably take it around the country roads as well. I wouldn't be willing to put out much money for it though.

I could see riding a small displacement bike on my commute if it got some spectacular mileage, but I prefer safety... a bike that can’t out accelerate a compact car seems unsafe to me... on the local roads, careful planning has kept me out of danger but I can imagine certain times that strong acceleration can avoid an accident(I have missed a couple deer like this)...
On the freeway I feel safer in my supercharged Redline than in my base model Ion...

The American market defines fun as overweight, high powered bricks. The country that invented the muscle car and honestly believes racecars can only turn left is not a country that values real automotive fun.

I drive a Fit. I have a lot of fun with it. If I could fit a motorcycle into my life, you bet it would be small.

For the past four years I've ridden 125's exclusively, mostly repowered Honda step-throughs with Lifan semi-automatic engines. I travel on two-lanes and back roads so there's absolutely no liability in riding one. Geared with a 17/36 combo my bikes will cruise all day long at 50-53 MPH and top out in the low 60's. My biggest trip was a multi-day adventure from Indy to the Smokies and back with a childhood friend who rode a Harley Tri-Glide and another on an Ultra Classic. Talk about being the odd man out!!

That was in 2016 and upon returning I bought a KYMCO K-Pipe. It's a really nice bike but were recalled because they came into the U. S. with an "international" shift pattern. This required a linkage setup to reverse the shift pattern and didn't shift very well with it. I changed it over to a heel-toe shifter and tried to remember that it shifted backwards from my other bikes, often unsuccessfully.

Unfortunately there are no tires available for this bike* other than the OEM's from KYMCO at $92 and $137 each. Because I refuse to pay this much for Cheng Shin tires I'm going to put it up for sale.

I'd like to have a 125cc street or dual purpose bike with a liquid cooled engine and a six speed gearbox. The problem is weight. Bikes sold in other markets like this weigh 275 lbs. or more, not much less than a bike twice it's displacement. Unless there's a reason to buy one (tiered licensing?) there's not much reason to buy one of these modern 125's. They're expensive, too.

By contrast my wired-together step throughs weigh in at around 175 lbs. (no battery, AC lighting) and are a total hoot to ride. I run Michelin City Pros or Gazelles in a 2.50" width and they generally cost me under $35 each. Using a 22mm Mikuni carb I generally get around 70 MPG. Insurance is giveaway cheap, too. With careful shopping you can find old step throughs for pocket change and can build a nice one for under a thousand bucks.

So yeah, I'd like to be able to buy a new and modern 125 but I'm afraid the weight and price would be prohibitive.

I did try a Honda Grom. It ran perfectly with it's fuel injection but was no faster than my old step throughs. The 12" wheels and Indy's bombed-out streets just didn't mesh so it went off to Arizona for an inseam-challenged lady to ride. Perhaps that motor in a chassis with 17" wire wheels might work.

*Update--I found a tubeless tire for the rear!! Kenda offers a K764 at a reasonable $62 delivered from an eBay vendor. Looks like the critter will stay in my fleet after all!!!

IMO after cost and maintenance bikes don't pay unless your are not going to not own a car. If owning 2 the mpg saving is probably less the registration and insurance.

Put 100,000 miles on bikes in 5-7 years, my 40 mpg Cobalt is way cheaper per mile 200,000 miles later.

I voted no, but I have ridden a 125cc 4 stroke dirt bike about 15 years ago and it seemed to have plenty of power.

I have no need for a motorcycle and no desire to have one.

Suzuki U. K. offers a GSX-125 that sells for $5224 U. S. and weighs 266 pounds. While the weight is tolerable for a modern 125 with all the bells and whistles the price is prohibitive for the U. S. market. You'd have to really, really want a 125 to justify the cost especially since you can get a 390 KTM for the same money.

This is why we'll never see them in the U. S.--unless tiered licensing were to become commonplace and give us a reason to buy one.

Yes I know cost would be prohibitive, and weight would be a real issue. They would have to be under 300 pounds to make sense. These kind of 125s have ABYSMAL 0-60 times of around 12 seconds. BUT JUST LISTEN TO IT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HP5fC69cDc


Well, the point of me getting a 125 wouldn't be to save money, it would be to have more fun within the law. Tires for motorcycles are probably the main source of their unfavorable cost per mile, expensive and they don't last long. Having worked at two tire shops, I have access to equipment. Even if that access dissapears I would sooner BUILD MY OWN tire changer than pay another person to change my tires.

I'm hip. I used to own a Honda MB-5 just to take to the True Grits 50cc Fun Run and racing that critter around in the mountains of north Georgia was a total hoot especially after I put a chamber on it. It sounded like I was going a zillion miles an hour but was doing good to make 55.

And yeah, that Varadero sounds sweet...

I think your poll needs a "No, because I don't travel on streets much" option. Basically all my travelling is either in rural areas, or on divided highway going through the city to get to the other side. And there are a lot of mountains to climb...

My first motorcycle was a 305 or maybe 350 cc Honda, which was fairly adequate. Never owned anything bigger than a 650, and rode that across the US and Canada.

Sure does! I would love to have a dream 50, but they are STUPID expensive, and very rare. The ones that do exist are likely in the hands of collectors, not being ridden.


Well, that's what being able to reply is for! To give your opinion/explain your choice.

Honestly I see very few liabilities in traveling by 125. I've found I have plenty of power to get up the mountains. Yeah, I can't climb 'em running 70 MPH like I could on "big bikes" but it's not like I'm pushing. I more than make up for it coming down the other side.:D

It's more of a mental adjustment than anything.

When I found myself no longer wanting to travel the autobahn and spending most of my time on back roads suddenly the idea of riding a 650 seemed kind of silly when most of the time I was cruising at 45-50. All of a sudden riding a 175 lb. 125cc bike made a lot of sense.

It ain't for everybody but it works for me. When folks figure this out and realize bigger ain't always better we'll see a demand for small bores again.

Since I'm not even in the U.S. I'm going to abstain from voting this poll, but I might still give my opinion from a Brazilian perspective.


People riding 125cc motorcycles even on highways is something I got used to see here. Sure a Honda CG 125 might not be the most suitable for that usage, more due to the skinny tyres and modest braking performance, but sometimes it's the only option for its rider.


I must confess I'd rather ride some 125cc motorcycle instead of a Harley. Well, at least a Honda CG 125 is more reliable :D


Had it been legal to ride a 125cc motorcycle within a certain maximum power limit with a regular car driving license there, like it's done in France, Portugal and Spain, I'm sure there would be more market opportunities for those bikes there.

That's the idea, I wanted to see if there was an actual interest for more expensive street 125s. Considering this is a hypermiling forum, and there isn't a huge amount of people voting yes, it makes me realize the sad truth that 125's like the ones I want are a 14 year wait away.


Same, but having never ridden a harley before I wouldn't be against trying one out. They actually offer small displacement(for them) v-twin bikes, the Street 500 and Street 750, and they are very reasonably priced too!


Well, i'm going to have to say I don't support that idea for three reasons.

1. I don't believe in limiting power for engine sizes, 125s are easily capable of more than 15 horsepower.

2. The 125s I want are rather expensive for what you get, if someone wants something cheap, they can get a grom.

3. I got to witness clueless people riding scooters(probably 50cc) just outside the sand dunes in Michigan. Aside from being hilarious, it was terrifying. Their sheer ineptitude in operating such underpowered vehicles does not give me hope. You have to remember this is Merica', where motorcycles aren't an everyday thing for most of the population. So lots of people don't know how to ride motorcycles. Letting them ride even 125cc bikes without any sort of motorcycle training would only end badly. Plus it isn't that hard to get your motorcycle license here in Merica', and when you do have it, you can ride ANYTHING.

Honda CG-125's...
 

I'd personally like to see Honda bring these in as an alternative to scooters and as an "entry-level" bike. Interestingly enough there are old guys in the U. S. who either physically can't ride or financially afford anything bigger so there's a market they're totally ignoring as well.

Sadly a nice lady from American Honda, who called me one Saturday in response to my letter pleading for them to get back into the small bike business, told me that "Honda is after a more affluent buyer.". Reading between the lines I gathered this to mean they'd adopted the H-D business model, i. e., big bikes=big profits. A conversation with a local long-time Honda dealer backed this up when he told me there was no profit in small bores. When I asked him what beginners were to ride he took me over to the CTX-700 and said "...these are the new beginner bikes." A $7000, 500 lb. bike that would easily run a hundred miles an hour a "beginner bike"? Hardly.

In my own case after riding for 46 years and owning everything the market offers simple 125's just make sense for the way I ride. I'm really tired of complicated bikes and now enjoy something lightweight and easy to work on. That they're inexpensive is just icing on the cake.

A high tech 125 would be great but I'm not sure I want to spend that much at this stage of the game. A CG-125, sold for well under $2000, is a whole 'nuther story.

I ride a 150 now and its just a little bit under powered for me.
I would like a 200 or some form of boost
but I am a heavy guy
I think a 125 would be good if I didn't already hav my bike

Have you tried any Kawasaki Eliminator 125s? I know its not liquid cooled, and I'm also not sure its fuel injected. But, you can pick them up for peanuts and usually don't have many miles as people upgrade to larger bikes. I've though about getting one a few times.

It certainly is interesting, didn't even know that was an option. Stupid cheap, found two on local craigslist for $800, one has less than 400 miles. As much as I am a weight reduction bro bro, I do like the normal sized bikes better, so I wasn't really ever interested in the grom. Those eliminators are all carbureted though. It has to be something special for me to justify getting another carbureted motorcycle, and there is nothing special about one of those. :rolleyes:

Unlike a bicycle a motorcycle is not as adjustable for seat height and handlebar positions. I weight much more than ideal for my frame so power to weight is critical given that 1000 foot climbs are common in my area. I have tried a Honda XL 125 dirt bike but I am more inclined toward a scooter at my age. I can buy a restricted 50cc scooter dirt cheap and run it up to 30 mph without a additional motorcycle license here in NYS. A Yamaha Zuma 125 or a Honda PCX 150 would suit me. A liquid cooled streamliner with a heater and dual sport tires would allow for a longer riding season.

125 Eliminators weigh in at around 320 lbs. and supposedly have 12 horsepower. I could probably get it down to under three hundred pounds by stripping off some of the stuff that doesn't make it go forward without making it ugly. Taken to an extreme (plastic dirt bike tank, cut away the subframe to "bobberize" it, etc.) might get it down to 275 or so, maybe less. Beyond that I'd have to figure out how to add a kickstarter, eliminate the big battery and electric starter, etc. but even then 250 is probably a long shot.

They were really popular as trainer bikes for awhile and probably aren't a bad bike. Like Daschicken says it has to have something to draw you to it and there's not much for me to like about it, either. Even if it had F. I. it's still way, way overweight and lacks the excitement factor needed to justify the pork.

The honda scooter, i think 2010 elite 110 is what id pick. Lots of storage, and excellent mpg! With Honda relaibility! Win win!
On second thought the yamaha xmax is bigger in size and can still go highway speed. Prob pick the Yamaha for technology advancements.

Scooters seem to be easier to market, due to their "urban mobility" appeal that makes them be seen as a "lifestyle" vehicle instead of a povertry feature.


Had Honda tried a similar approach in most of the world, it would most likely lose its already-consolidated leadership.


Maybe the lack of a tiered licensing scheme, which is used in markets such as Japan, Australia, Europe and on its way to be implemented here in Brazil too, leads to the small-displacement being seen as "less profitable". Plus its riders are less likely to buy expensive official merchandise and aftermarket accessories which may also account for much of said profit.


From my 3rd-world perspective, I wouldn't consider a motorcycle that costs nearly as much as some low-mileage subcompact a "beginner bike".


Gotta love the old-school ones?
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-o8WUAQfy0...-dianteiro.jpg

And what about this? At least 15 years-old, and they're still easily seen on the job.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Yoq-UTlzb...go%2B99-04.jpg


Considering that size and displacement are often seen as a "prestige" feature, it's understandable that a hi-tech small motorcycle could be regarded less cost-effective.


This is a version meant for couriers.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gJw11zNrw...ro-direito.jpg

Since this is Ecomodder...
 

...we should talk about the gas mileage of 125's. Or specifically, the lack of.

My buddy's WR-250R has consistently returns 75-80 MPG and occasionally pushes 90. By comparison my Lifan is doing good to get 75 with half the power (or less), usually returning around 70 and occasionally 80 if I hold my tongue right. This is downright embarrassing.

Admittedly it's an apples-to-oranges comparison. The WR is a completely modern motorcycle whereas my Lifan is basically upgraded 60's technology. I also have the carb jetted pretty fat for good running manners.

My point here is that a modern 125 would weigh and cost about the same as a 250 and get about the same mileage so there's very little incentive for them to exist in this country without tiered licensing.

(As an aside there's probably a dozen WR's in ownership among my riding buddies and one of them has 122,000 miles on it!! It was recently taken apart to replace the output shaft and while down they did a ring and valve job but it was still starting and running just fine. These are amazing motorcycles and if I had the legs to ride them I'd own one.)

Well, that's air cooled vs liquid cooled. Liquid cooled allows a higher compression ratio, and your air cooled bike probably has 4(?) speeds vs the WR's 6 speed.

Checking on fuelly, Single cylinder CBR 250Rs are getting around 65-68 MPG, CBR 300Rs' data is janky, can only get it to show one bike per "vehicle", but two bikes are getting 72 MPG. CBR 125Rs on fuelly are getting between 85-100 MPG, varadero 125s are getting around 70 MPG. CBR 150Rs are getting around 80-90 MPG. Sure seems like they have the potential to get great mpg, especially if regeared. Check out some of the cruising RPMs of these 125s on gearingcommander, the varadero has very short gearing putting it at 7000 RPM at only 45 mph.

As interesting as a 125 motorcycle sounds, it would be crushed by the scooter market. 125 bike has a target market of high school and college students(see honda grom). Book/laptop storage, twist and go, easy step through frame, Fuel injection and water cooled, Modern designs, lower body weather protection, 12v power outlets and cubbie storage for cell phone, and stuff. Even retired people prefer scooters( or goldwing/harley trikes) the SYM Symba 110cc is what you are looking for. And can get 100mpg.
I had a 07 Yamaha Morphous sitting next to my kawasaki voyager xii and the scooter got picked 90% of the time. Only trips over 50miles two up got the voyager out the garage. Even though we sold both when we moved th GA to start a business. Two years later we picked up the R1200RT BMW cheap for our trip to the mountains. Still miss the scooter for quick trips! Im sure we will pick up another scooter but the smallest cc considered will be a 300.

Even though a hi-tech 125cc motorcycle may be just marginally lighter and not so substantially cheaper than a comparatively-equipped 250cc, there is still some viability for them even among Americans.


Maybe not. You know, while a scooter has been more optimized for city traffic, a more traditionally-designed 125cc motorcycle is still likely to attract those who want something more suitable to occasional short trips (for which both the gearing and the usually broader RPM range of a motorcycle often become less of a compromise). Plus a recently-licensed boy would eventually feel more inclined toward the idea that a motorcycle would make him appear more macho than his scooter-riding peers, much like the way some folks still say that "real men use the 3 pedals".


So it doesn't seem so bad, since it would become a reasonable option for unexperienced riders who would otherwise be pushed toward an older (and occasionally neglected) higher-performance motorcycle which may not just be more expensive to mantain but also not so suitable to their (lack of) riding skills.


Scooters have been pointed out as an option for people who are looking for a "car replacement" to use in their shorter inner-city errands, not for a traditional motorcycle experience. The weight bias of a scooter is also more concentrated around the rear wheel, while in a motorcycle it's more centralized.

I personally would not buy a 125cc 4-stroke for the street for the type of riding I do and the area where I ride.

As others have mentioned, the current CBR250R or Ninja 250/300 is capable of getting very good FE numbers while still providing reasonable power output.

Also mentioned - scooters have that area of the market pretty well covered, especially for most casual riders that are looking for simplicity and good economy but aren't necessarily interested in the sport aspect of riding a cycle.

As a sport rider that commutes moderate distances in medium-density traffic, I like the performance available from my SV650. It will deliver 50+ MPG in-town or at Interstate speeds, and will get into the 60 MPG range when riding at a moderate pace on the backroads.

I like small cycles (I own a 75cc 2-stroke street bike) but any 125cc bike I bought would have to be a sport 2-stroke (Aprilia, Cagiva) just for fun.

Too bad the 2-strokes are being quickly phased out, with the remaining ones also being eventually subjected to arbitrary restrictions on their usage only for being 2-stroke. But anyway, a current-generation 4-stroke 125cc is now in pair with the performance of some detuned versions of the 2-strokes that had been available in Europe (due to both the tiered licensing and stricter emission rules).

I think a DR650 covers what i want in a small bike. Maybe even a BMW GS650(water cooled and fuel injection) would fill my small bike desires while still able to "tour" if you will to the next town away.
I understand the stigma of nerds on scooters, but riding a modern big wheeled scooter may change your mind(did for me). Just for giggles you should test ride the new BMW 650 or piaggio BV350 scoot. I would of never thought a scooter would be for me since owning bikes from XL185 to Goldwing to Vmax to Ninja 1000 to BMW sport touring. I personally believe everyone should own 3-5 bikes at a time and select the one that fits your mood to ride that day. :)

Interesting that over there a small bike is a dr650 whereas here it is a big bike :)

A DR650 is on my list as well, though I've not ridden one. Rode a nice older KLX650 (limited years of production, upgraded version of a KLR with inverted forks) and found that to be a hoot.

I totally agree with your last sentence, but would include - "...at least..." before "...3-5 bikes at a time...".

I tend to think of bikes as small or large based on weight and power, so the DR at 325# and 40-some HP would be on the smaller side for me - but I get your point.