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-   -   anybody tried hydrogen generation? (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/anybody-tried-hydrogen-generation-21367.html)

bandit86 04-09-2012 11:08 AM

anybody tried hydrogen generation?
 
before anybody jumps on this thread who hooked up a hydrogen generation kit and says it doesnt work, was the timing adjusted properly to take advantage of the fuel? hydrogen burns at a different rate than gasoline, the timing must be adjusted. Sort of like setting up timing on regular fuel and then running high octane fuel that burns slower, and combustion is not complete untill well after TDC.

I know we are yet to see some conclusive evidence of it working, but the math seems sold. optimum air-fuel ratio for a gasoline engine is 12:1, being 12 parts air to 1 part gasoline. at 30 mpg -let me carry on in metric, I find it easier, 30 mpg is 7.8L/100kms. Alright, if you drive one hour at highway speed, youc car getting 30MPG or 7.8L/100 you would have used 2 gallons or 7.8L of fuel. at 12:1 air fuel ratio that should be 24 gallons of air, or 93.6L of air consumed with that fuel. It does not seem right, that amount of air does not sound right, but you cannot dispute the logic.

hydrogen, while I hear only has about half the energy of gasoline, has a perfect air fuel ratio of 2:1. do if the engine needed 48 gallons of air fuel mixture still only 24 gallons would need to be generated, or about 47L of hydrogen gas.

so how much energy would it take to generate that much hydrogen, while installing a second alternator to help increase the electrical demand would also decrease fuel economy the cost of free water would negate the increase in fuel economy, no?

MetroMPG 04-09-2012 11:24 AM

Moved thread to the unicorn corral.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandit86 (Post 299247)
I know we are yet to see some conclusive evidence of it working

I will happily move the discussion elsewhere if we get that pesky "evidence" issue sorted out.

Also: this topic been discussed plenty here in the forum. You could spend hours reading.

The search tool on the top left of the page uses Google (familiar syntax) for user-friendliness. If you click the Advanced search link, you can use different search options & syntax via the forum's built-in search feature.)

jakobnev 04-09-2012 12:06 PM

You've confused mass ratios with volume ratios, hence your absurd results.

mort 04-09-2012 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandit86 (Post 299247)
before anybody jumps on this thread who hooked up a hydrogen generation kit and says it doesnt work, was the timing adjusted properly to take advantage of the fuel?

Yes, there are a couple of posts here on ecomodder that refer to this paper from 1977!
Quote:

Originally Posted by bandit86 (Post 299247)
I know we are yet to see some conclusive evidence of it working, but the math seems sold. optimum air-fuel ratio for a gasoline engine is 12:1, being 12 parts air to 1 part gasoline. at 30 mpg -let me carry on in metric, I find it easier, 30 mpg is 7.8L/100kms. Alright, if you drive one hour at highway speed, youc car getting 30MPG or 7.8L/100 you would have used 2 gallons or 7.8L of fuel. at 12:1 air fuel ratio that should be 24 gallons of air, or 93.6L of air consumed with that fuel. It does not seem right, that amount of air does not sound right, but you cannot dispute the logic.

Hint:
Ideal A:F is closer to 14.7:1 and is mass. So 7.8 liters is 5.6 kg of gasoline (0.719 kg/l)
5.6 * 14.7 = 82.4 kg of air. Air weighs about 1.2g/l that's about 70,000 Liters of air... If the A:F for H2 is 2:1 you'd need 40 kg of H2 at 0.089 g/l that's about 449,438 liters. You might want to check your assumptions.
-mort

Frank Lee 04-09-2012 06:45 PM

Wow. Just wow. The math has been gone over time and time again re: hydrogen produced vs hydrogen needed and also energy needed to get the hydrogen. "Timing" isn't the deal killer for this albatross.

Ryland 04-09-2012 09:52 PM

cost of running a generator to produce electricity is 5 times that of electricity from a wall outlet and my figures to produce enough hydrogen to replace a gallon of gasoline, figuring that it takes 240 watts to produce a liter of hydrogen and that it takes 1352 liters or hydrogen to equal a gallon of gasoline and my electrical costs are $0.12 per KWH it would cost me $37.30 at home to produce enough hydrogen to replace a gallon of gasoline, or it would cost $186.50 if I was using my cars alternator to power a hydrogen generator, I've made hydrogen at home and I've made hydrogen using a small industrial fuel cell hydrogen generator and those figures look pretty accurate, that is why if you buy a bottle of hydrogen from a welding supply shop, it's extracted from natural gas, extracting it from water costs to much!

t vago 04-10-2012 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandit86 (Post 299247)
I know we are yet to see some conclusive evidence of it working, but the math seems sold.

Oh, of course! In well over 40-odd years of various people tinkering with hydrogen for internal combustion engines, nobody at all had thought about messing with ignition timing! That is, up to now! You've stumbled onto the correct answer! OMG! Surely you're going to win the next Nobel prize in chemistry because of this!

</sarcasm>

oil pan 4 04-10-2012 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland (Post 299381)
it would cost $37.30 at home to produce enough hydrogen to replace a gallon of gasoline, or it would cost $186.50 if I was using my cars alternator to power a hydrogen generator ..... that is why if you buy a bottle of hydrogen from a welding supply shop, it's extracted from natural gas, extracting it from water costs to much!

This is what I have been saying since 2005. Your numbers are very, very close to what I came up with.

99metro 04-11-2012 10:41 AM

There are people who claim to have things working, but they lie low. I know someone who is working on an "HHO" for his vehicle, but has a couple grand invested in the components and it still isn't operational. He has to get some fancy electronic equipment custom built (fuel control) along with a few other things. It seems to be turning into a perpetual "need this need that". BUT this guy has lots of $$$ to spend and is convinced that HHO is the way to go.

Personally, I would steer clear. By the time all the stuff is bought and installed, I could have bought 6 or 7 years worth of gas. And even then I might find that I'd get worse fuel mileage (who knows?). Not really the direction I am going, nor the investment/risk I'd want to take.

niky 04-12-2012 12:28 AM

The funny thing... with all the equipment, electronics, fluid storage, injection, etcetera... they buy, they could have already assembled and built a water injection system integrated with a piggyback ECU to lean out the fuel charge and they'd be saving gas, already.

Not that distilled water is free, but the numbers work out... somewhat. :p


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