Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > The Unicorn Corral
Register Now
 Register Now
 


Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-09-2012, 11:08 AM   #1 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: london, on
Posts: 305

The Antichrist - '95 Land rover Discovery Plain Jane
90 day: 12.7 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
anybody tried hydrogen generation?

before anybody jumps on this thread who hooked up a hydrogen generation kit and says it doesnt work, was the timing adjusted properly to take advantage of the fuel? hydrogen burns at a different rate than gasoline, the timing must be adjusted. Sort of like setting up timing on regular fuel and then running high octane fuel that burns slower, and combustion is not complete untill well after TDC.

I know we are yet to see some conclusive evidence of it working, but the math seems sold. optimum air-fuel ratio for a gasoline engine is 12:1, being 12 parts air to 1 part gasoline. at 30 mpg -let me carry on in metric, I find it easier, 30 mpg is 7.8L/100kms. Alright, if you drive one hour at highway speed, youc car getting 30MPG or 7.8L/100 you would have used 2 gallons or 7.8L of fuel. at 12:1 air fuel ratio that should be 24 gallons of air, or 93.6L of air consumed with that fuel. It does not seem right, that amount of air does not sound right, but you cannot dispute the logic.

hydrogen, while I hear only has about half the energy of gasoline, has a perfect air fuel ratio of 2:1. do if the engine needed 48 gallons of air fuel mixture still only 24 gallons would need to be generated, or about 47L of hydrogen gas.

so how much energy would it take to generate that much hydrogen, while installing a second alternator to help increase the electrical demand would also decrease fuel economy the cost of free water would negate the increase in fuel economy, no?

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 04-09-2012, 11:24 AM   #2 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,237

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 52.07 mpg (US)

Winter beater Metro - '00 Chevrolet Metro
90 day: 61.98 mpg (US)

Fancy Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 58.72 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3,796
Thanked 6,655 Times in 3,447 Posts
Moved thread to the unicorn corral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit86 View Post
I know we are yet to see some conclusive evidence of it working
I will happily move the discussion elsewhere if we get that pesky "evidence" issue sorted out.

Also: this topic been discussed plenty here in the forum. You could spend hours reading.

The search tool on the top left of the page uses Google (familiar syntax) for user-friendliness. If you click the Advanced search link, you can use different search options & syntax via the forum's built-in search feature.)
__________________
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: Oops, I did it again! Bought another cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage. Mods in progress...
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 12:06 PM   #3 (permalink)
Eco-ventor
 
jakobnev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: sweden
Posts: 1,568

Princess - '92 Mazda MX-3 GS
House of Tudor
Team Mazda
90 day: 53.54 mpg (US)

Shirubāarō (*ω`*) - '05 Toyota Prius Executive
Team Toyota
90 day: 54.88 mpg (US)

Blue Thunder - '20 Hyundai IONIQ Trend PHEV
Team Hyundai
Plug-in Hybrids
Thanks: 68
Thanked 644 Times in 408 Posts
Send a message via MSN to jakobnev
You've confused mass ratios with volume ratios, hence your absurd results.
__________________




2016: 128.75L for 1875.00km => 6.87L/100km (34.3MPG US)
2017: 209.14L for 4244.00km => 4.93L/100km (47.7MPG US)
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to jakobnev For This Useful Post:
Frank Lee (04-09-2012)
Old 04-09-2012, 12:17 PM   #4 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurcher
 
mort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 322
Thanks: 145
Thanked 101 Times in 73 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit86 View Post
before anybody jumps on this thread who hooked up a hydrogen generation kit and says it doesnt work, was the timing adjusted properly to take advantage of the fuel?
Yes, there are a couple of posts here on ecomodder that refer to this paper from 1977!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit86 View Post
I know we are yet to see some conclusive evidence of it working, but the math seems sold. optimum air-fuel ratio for a gasoline engine is 12:1, being 12 parts air to 1 part gasoline. at 30 mpg -let me carry on in metric, I find it easier, 30 mpg is 7.8L/100kms. Alright, if you drive one hour at highway speed, youc car getting 30MPG or 7.8L/100 you would have used 2 gallons or 7.8L of fuel. at 12:1 air fuel ratio that should be 24 gallons of air, or 93.6L of air consumed with that fuel. It does not seem right, that amount of air does not sound right, but you cannot dispute the logic.
Hint:
Ideal A:F is closer to 14.7:1 and is mass. So 7.8 liters is 5.6 kg of gasoline (0.719 kg/l)
5.6 * 14.7 = 82.4 kg of air. Air weighs about 1.2g/l that's about 70,000 Liters of air... If the A:F for H2 is 2:1 you'd need 40 kg of H2 at 0.089 g/l that's about 449,438 liters. You might want to check your assumptions.
-mort

Last edited by mort; 04-09-2012 at 01:59 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 06:45 PM   #5 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,761

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,585
Thanked 3,548 Times in 2,215 Posts
Wow. Just wow. The math has been gone over time and time again re: hydrogen produced vs hydrogen needed and also energy needed to get the hydrogen. "Timing" isn't the deal killer for this albatross.
__________________


  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 09:52 PM   #6 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Ryland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Western Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903

honda cb125 - '74 Honda CB 125 S1
90 day: 79.71 mpg (US)

green wedge - '81 Commuter Vehicles Inc. Commuti-Car

Blue VX - '93 Honda Civic VX
Thanks: 867
Thanked 433 Times in 353 Posts
cost of running a generator to produce electricity is 5 times that of electricity from a wall outlet and my figures to produce enough hydrogen to replace a gallon of gasoline, figuring that it takes 240 watts to produce a liter of hydrogen and that it takes 1352 liters or hydrogen to equal a gallon of gasoline and my electrical costs are $0.12 per KWH it would cost me $37.30 at home to produce enough hydrogen to replace a gallon of gasoline, or it would cost $186.50 if I was using my cars alternator to power a hydrogen generator, I've made hydrogen at home and I've made hydrogen using a small industrial fuel cell hydrogen generator and those figures look pretty accurate, that is why if you buy a bottle of hydrogen from a welding supply shop, it's extracted from natural gas, extracting it from water costs to much!
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ryland For This Useful Post:
ChazInMT (04-25-2012)
Old 04-10-2012, 03:19 PM   #7 (permalink)
MPGuino Supporter
 
t vago's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posts: 1,766

The Karen-Mobile - '05 Dodge Magnum SXT
Team Dodge
90 day: 26.72 mpg (US)

Fiat Dakota - '00 Dodge Dakota SLT RWD Quad Cab
90 day: 16.67 mpg (US)

The Red Sled - '01 Dodge Durango SLT 4WD
90 day: 16.96 mpg (US)
Thanks: 799
Thanked 682 Times in 437 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit86 View Post
I know we are yet to see some conclusive evidence of it working, but the math seems sold.
Oh, of course! In well over 40-odd years of various people tinkering with hydrogen for internal combustion engines, nobody at all had thought about messing with ignition timing! That is, up to now! You've stumbled onto the correct answer! OMG! Surely you're going to win the next Nobel prize in chemistry because of this!

</sarcasm>
__________________
The Fiat Dakota


The Karen-mobile


The Red Sled
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2012, 04:35 PM   #8 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 9,611

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 141.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 228
Thanked 3,134 Times in 2,454 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryland View Post
it would cost $37.30 at home to produce enough hydrogen to replace a gallon of gasoline, or it would cost $186.50 if I was using my cars alternator to power a hydrogen generator ..... that is why if you buy a bottle of hydrogen from a welding supply shop, it's extracted from natural gas, extracting it from water costs to much!
This is what I have been saying since 2005. Your numbers are very, very close to what I came up with.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to oil pan 4 For This Useful Post:
Ryland (04-10-2012)
Old 04-11-2012, 10:41 AM   #9 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Briggsdale, Colorado
Posts: 296

Wildfire - '96 Ford Bronco XL
90 day: 14.88 mpg (US)

Blackford - '96 Ford Bronco XLT
90 day: 20.26 mpg (US)

Y2k - '00 Honda Insight
Gen-1 Insights
Team Honda
90 day: 73.98 mpg (US)

Redford V10 - '01 Ford F250 Lariat
90 day: 15.64 mpg (US)

FireFly - '00 Honda Insight DX
90 day: 69.43 mpg (US)

LittleRed - '00 Honda Insight
Thanks: 3
Thanked 31 Times in 14 Posts
There are people who claim to have things working, but they lie low. I know someone who is working on an "HHO" for his vehicle, but has a couple grand invested in the components and it still isn't operational. He has to get some fancy electronic equipment custom built (fuel control) along with a few other things. It seems to be turning into a perpetual "need this need that". BUT this guy has lots of $$$ to spend and is convinced that HHO is the way to go.

Personally, I would steer clear. By the time all the stuff is bought and installed, I could have bought 6 or 7 years worth of gas. And even then I might find that I'd get worse fuel mileage (who knows?). Not really the direction I am going, nor the investment/risk I'd want to take.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 12:28 AM   #10 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Philippines
Posts: 2,173
Thanks: 1,739
Thanked 589 Times in 401 Posts
The funny thing... with all the equipment, electronics, fluid storage, injection, etcetera... they buy, they could have already assembled and built a water injection system integrated with a piggyback ECU to lean out the fuel charge and they'd be saving gas, already.

Not that distilled water is free, but the numbers work out... somewhat.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com