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Old 08-20-2013, 02:47 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I'd be quite concerned over that much water shifting around while driving. A higher center-of-gravity for the truck should take precedence in this. I don't see it being free heat as the truck still has to accelerate that non-paying mass/weight to speed and back down again. A one-two punch.

A propane garage heater would be more cost effective given proper installation.

Decreasing the service life of the vehicle and components plus higher fuel cost plus handling/steering deterioration is expensive on several levels.

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Old 08-20-2013, 03:25 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Thanks guys for the input. This is what i wanted for other people to give me there inputs.

The weight only drops the trucks mileage by 1/2 mpg or less. But a 1/2 gallon is a i/2 gallon.

The wear and tear on the truck is something that might kill this project. Good point on high CG.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:03 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I like the idea, but that seems like a lot of work/complexity just to heat a garage. I vote for natural gas or propane.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:10 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Get a shorter pickup or extend the garage a bit.

https://www.google.com/search?q=gara...w=1280&bih=699
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:30 PM   #25 (permalink)
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My thoughts were to see if it would work first by testing it with the garage. If it was successful then start using it to help heat the house.

I'm using a 1500 watt portable heater in the garage now that keeps it nice and comfortable at 58*F to 62*F even when its -10*F outside. Keep in mind I work out in the garage two hours every night.

Our total electric cost house/garage last year during the month of January was $74.00 with the electric garage heater running, thermostat controlled.

Our gas was $87.00 for the month of January This is what heats our house and the water heater, stove/range is electric.

So the gains would be very small I know. So this project would be more about how warm would the garage get 20 x 20 x 8 ft. ??? Would it be feasible to integrate it into the house heating???

It just bugs the living day lights out of me knowing that my truck could possibly be a extra heating source since its used for delivery 8 hours a day.
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:05 AM   #26 (permalink)
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High CG... any ill effects would depend on how heavy the tank and how high up it is. My Camper Special with the ginormous slide-in camper has a water tank; I can detect when it is full vs empty but it isn't bad, especially considering how huge, heavy, and high the camper itself is. I'd say that's a non-issue, as is the extra weight for accelerating the truck... unless your route is severe stop-n-go urban.



Now, since you run so much daily, you are generating a boat load of waste heat. Why not make a trailer for an insulated man-sized tank and really capture it? Back the trailer into the garage and thermosiphon or otherwise xfer the heat out. 250g tank = 2000 lbs water- no big deal- should hold enough heat to help heat the house, let alone the garage. Or maybe a 200g tank on a cheap Harbor Fright trailer. Yes you'd need some hose disconnects but I don't think that's technically insurmountable. Someone more into this than I should be able to calculate an estimate of how much recoverable heat there is...

P.S. OK I'll give it a shot to start things off:
It seems you put on 80 miles per 8-hour day during your route. Is that all urban/really short and frequent hops? There must be prolonged engine-off periods resulting in, oh, about a 1:1 off/on duty cycle (engine is off same amount of time it is on) at 20 mph average speed, to 2:1 @ 40 mph average?

At 17 mpg that's about 4.7 gallons of gas/day; x 114,000 BTU/gal = about 536,000 BTU gasoline input.

10-20% of input energy is lost to coolant and 20-30% lost to exhaust, assuming this guy is right: http://umpir.ump.edu.my/1038/1/Abdul...in_Mohamad.pdf

536,000 x .1-.2 = 53,600-107,200 BTU raw coolant energy; plus 107,200-160,800 BTU exhaust heat energy.

A BTU raises 1 lb of water 1 degree F at atmospheric pressure. If we start with 60 degree water (garage ambient) and heat to 195 (standard thermostat/coolant temp?) and we have 53,600-107,200 BTUs:
53,600/(195 - 60)= 397 lbs;
107,200/(195 - 60)= 795 lbs of water needed...?
... or 50 to 100 gallons of water. But then what if we pressurize it. And use coolant... OK, so probably you don't need my trailer concept but if I haven't screwed up too badly thus far you might want 100 gallons for your heat sink.

It being a large vehicle, fueleconomy.gov suggests a 1% fe hit per 100lbs; 800lbs then being an 8% hit (?) then 17mpg x .92 = 15.64mpg, errr, about 1 solid mpg. 400/16= 25gal/week or 5.0 g/day up from 4.7 or 4.8; .2-.3 g/day x $3.50/g = $0.70-$1.05/day more gas, which perhaps can be hypermiled back out.

But wait! For the electric heater, watts x hours of use ÷ 1,000 x cost per kilowatt-hour = cost of operation; so 1500 x 2 / 1000 x .0724 (?) = 22 cents.
D'Oh!

This calculator http://www.calculator.net/btu-calcul...heat&x=51&y=11 estimates you need 29,120 BTU/hour to keep 60 deg in when it's -10 deg out; at 8500 watts that's quite different from your claim that a 1500 watt heater does the job.

To get the estimator to agree with 1500 watts/hr I have to bump the insulation quality to "good" and the in/out temp spread to 20 deg. Evidently there's a shared wall or two with the house that is helping tremendously, and the furnace and water heater sitting right there must kick out noticeable heat i.e. substantial BTUs too with the ambient temp in the garage being about 40 degrees w/o the electric heater boost.

Anyhoo, 1500watts/hr = 5000 BTU/hr; If you could recover 100% of the coolant energy and dissipate it at that rate (53,600-104,700/5000) it would heat the garage about 11 to 22 hours. That ain't gonna happen so at 50% recovery you'd have 5 1/2-11 hours of heat. And so on.

Imagine how much better this all gets if one could recover the exhaust heat! You could heat the garage to warmer than the house then open the door from garage to house!

Anal-lytical types please pick the analysis apart for my inevitable mistake! And/or gimme more info because I had to do an awful lotta guesstimating.

But I think you should get a Transit (garageable, and possibly cut your fuel use 50%) hybrid, or even an EV if you can plug in at lunch time instead. Then you can simply park inside again, or better yet, put that water heater tank in an insulated box in the back and open the box, windows, and hood when you park inside.
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:26 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Thanks a ton Frank, great info!!! Much appreciated!!!

My Wednesday route is around 280 miles that day. My Thursday route is around 150 miles a day. The rest of the week I would not use the water heater because there only around 75 miles a day.
EDIT: Its all Rural my average speed is 50 mph. Very little stopping.

I hope I didn't miss-lead anyone here. The coldest it usually gets during the winter is -10* F. and only maybe 5 days a year. So I would say our average winter temps are around 39*F

Your right about the house adding heat to the garage now. I have shot it with an infra red gun and the joining wall is always around 5 degrees warmer. Plus the gas water heater has around 72* temps at its base. The furnace also has around 68* temps when its running.
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:46 AM   #28 (permalink)
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how about routing the exhaust (after the cat), through the water tank. the cooling system is great. but exhaust could be a good clean approach without getting into too much plumbing, valves, etc.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:50 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Ok let do some MATH

Formula used:
1 calorie = 4.18 watt/sec
1 calorie heat 1 litre up 1 deg Celsius
Correction : 1 calorie hean 1ml up 1 deg
1 kilowatt = 1000 watts
1 hrs = 3600secs
1 gal = 3.78 litres (I round up to 4 because of the tank heat inertia)

My guess is that it is not worth it, the heat in 50 gal of water contain not enough energy to make it viable.

50gal = a bit less than 200 Litres

let say that the inside of the garage is at 0 Celsius (37F) and you bring 200 Litres of water at 100 Celsius (212F)
That 200 litres contain (100*200)=20,000 calories of potential energy (heat)

That water tank will contain:
20,000 calories =
83,600 watt/sec; or
83.6 kilowatt/sec; or
0.0232 kilowatt/hrs

We pay electricity in kilowatt/hrs
In US/Canada, the highest residential electric rate is Connecticut at 18.10 cent/kilowatt/hrs, the US average is a around 11.50 cent/kilowatt/hrs and the lowest is Province of Quebec at 6.8 cent.

0.0232kilowatt/hrs * 18.10 cent = 0.4 cent
So in that 50gals water thank that you had to buy and install and carry all the time, you accumulated 0.4cent worth of heat. Or you could start a 1000watt electric heater for 2 minutes and have the same amount of energy.

Correction, 1 calorie heat 1 ml of water, not a liter. Just multiply everything by 1000

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Old 08-21-2013, 02:22 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Was thinking the same but using BTU's 50 gallons = 400 lbs of water, if 200 degress when you get home, and cool it to 80 before you quit you have (400 lbs x 120) 48,000 btu's of heat, convert that to KWH 14 kwh at $0.15/kwh = $2.10 worth of electric heat. All assuming you get 100% of the heat stored transferred.

Our numbers don't match up but the answers the same.

1500 watt heaters cost $0.22 per hour to run


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