Battling the non-believers
 

I had a fun afternoon of going back and forth with a handful of guys on a ford ranger board about hypermiling in general and EOCing in particular.

It seems that people in general out there think that engine off coasting a manual transmissioned car is crazy and dangerous. I turned it around on them and said that someone with a 6" lift and mudder tires should probably just STFU when it comes to preaching safety.

Then the pile on of the bigfooters commenced!!!!

Good times.

It is amazing how basic physics seems to be beyond the comprehension of most folks.

Anyone else here been through this when explaining to "normal" people that you are actually looney enough to shut your engine off at 40 mph?

I got banned from the chevelles forum for talking about fuel economy. Imagine that. :rolleyes:

I wonder how they are enjoying the $4 gas? They sure love to biatch about it, then in the next breath brag about their big block.

I bet a lifted ranger can handle emergency maneuvers and emergency braking better than EOC vacuum-less driving. Doesn't seem like an apples to apples comparison...

the people who bash hypermiling then complain about mileage, in my opinion, are simply too incompetent to make the connection. or too scared to build what they really want. why not put a big block v8 in a prius (aside from the obvious engineering difficulty)?


hypermiling is fun, but sometimes i just get that need for speed!! i prefer to have my cake and eat it too, which is why my next car will be a v-8 manual. looking seriously at the '04 GTO 6 spd.

Big block chevys were nice when gas was near $1/gal.

The majority of people believe that their vehicle left the factory in the best configuration for their individual driving habit, driving conditions and is already setup to get the best economy possible.
Some believe it takes a team of engineers to improve fuel economy.
Maybe that is true when trying to come up with a cheap, idiot proof way to increase fuel economy that is federal and california emmissions legal.

I bet not! And it was a good comparison- hit those dolts right in the nads.

Well it would be pretty easy to test wouldn't it? take two rangers, one with a 6" lift and mud terrains and one that is EOCing and see what the braking distance is for each...then so a similar test in quick lane changes.

I'm willing to eat my words if they are both within a few percentages of each other. I doubt they are though.

My wife hates it when I do EOC and/or hypermiling in general (and, probably mostly, the fact that it makes me so touchy about the car and when, where, and how it can be driven).

I stopped doing EOC altogether and when she's in the car, I just drive the car like a normal person now (which is why I've stopped keeping track of my mpg...it's no fun unless I can go balls-to-the-wall all the time, trying to beat my last number, etc... Before anyone rags on my wife, it's actually a good thing, hypermiling was feeding my OCD which is not a good thing and I'm actually a happier person).

Thanks to normal efficient driving techniques and some light P&G (engine on), I'm still getting 38+ mpg in combined driving (which is still 72+% over EPA-combined and 35+% over EPA-highway for a 2006 2.4L 5-spd HHR).

Do you know what oversize wheels and tires do to the handling of a vehicle? all the person who is EOC'ing has to do is let out the clutch and bam, the engine is running. 6" lift and mud tires, quick lane change... am i the only one who foresees an unpleasant ending?

I don't know about you, but I rarely run out of vacuum when I EOC. There is enough vacuum built up in the reservoir to use the brakes 2-3 times before it runs out of assist. So, only on long, windy hills. Otherwise, I still have good brakes.

I don't think I'd classify either as unsafe though.

Most of us are somewhat hypocritical about something in our life...the big block addicts are just the "hypocrite de jeur" yeah i know i prob mispelled that but french is my 2nd language lol.

While EOC is illegal in Virginia (ancient law back to the 1930s when Plymouth brought out freewheeling). Technically coasting in neutral with the engine on is illegal, unless they rescinded the law written when some cars had 2 wheel mechanical brakes and coming down a steep sustained grade could be disastrous. I would think the law would be difficult to enforce since a Prius does it automatically:D.

Every time I think of jacked up trucks, I can't help but remember the show where they put one BMW on top of another BMW and ran them around a track. Another inconvenient law in Va is that the tires can't stick out more than a half an inch past the wheel wells, as well as another of those laws that says the distance from the road surface to the frame rails, behind the front bumper can not exceed something like 28 inches (might be 32, not really to sharp on laws I have no chance of breaking).

Not going to try EOC in a dual clutch 6 speed Fiesta. Maybe I'll try it in the car I am buying this week sometime. 1951 Chevrolet Fleetline fastback with an almost 500 cubic inch big block that is supposed to dyno at something like 650 horsepower. The car was modified close to 30 years ago, and I will be the 3rd owner. I think the back tires are about 20 inches wide :eek:.

regards
Mech

Big blocks were nice when my income equalled 39000 gallons of gas a year, in 1972.

regards
Mech

the problem is those bmws probably still get better mileage than the jacked up trucks I think of...The only truck i can think about atm and actually know the mileage gets about 11mpg and its a 5speed 4 cyl jeep wrangler sitting on 37" iroks

Different strokes...

People like that will believe what they want to believe, just as we like to believe our driving techniques are somehow better than those of our brothers.

I tell them I drive this car six or seven days a week so it just makes sense to save money where I can.

Anyone with half a brain, paying just the slightest bit of attention will never run out of brake assist. On long downhills, its even easier sa you can engage the clutch and spin up all the vac boost/power steering you need, without turning the fuel back on.

Vacuum-less? :confused:

If a vehicle loses vacuum assist with the engine off, there's something wrong with it (within many minutes after engine off, not many hours). Vac reserve for braking without the engine running is a built-in safety feature of every modern car with power assisted brakes.

Holy crap Mech, are you are going to Bonneville !!!! ??
with that beast

You will have post photos when you get a chance.

Tuner and performance oriented forums have other interests than fuel economy. And the "tuner" and "performance" people will be on those boards.

Put some noticeable eco mods on your car. Use stick-on mailbox numbers on a rear side window to show your mpg. People will ask "do you really get xx mpg?" and "how do you get that kind of mpg"?

Guess how I know this works?

several yrs ago I had a thread on an infiniti forum asking if it was possible to get 31mpg out of an 2002 Infiniti Q45 Sport.
YOu have no idea how personal and ugly it got.

EOC with automatics?
 

So EOC'ing works great for manual transmissions, but what about Automatics? Is it always a bad idea? It's harder to turn the car back on than in a manual, and as far as I can tell, automatic transmission fluid will only circulate when the engine is on, but I have yet to reach a solid conclusion about it. I feel like the parts that are spinning in the tranny when in neutral would splash the fluid around and keep those moving parts lubricated. If it really does hurt the tranny to be moving with the engine off, how long/fast can you go without damaging it? I've heard that you can keep the engine off for up to five minutes without causing damage. Any insights on this subject?

It really depends on your automatic tranny not all or perhaps most cannot be EOC but many can be. You will have to find out if your particular transmission can be EOC.
Most automatic transmission cars use a electric vacuum pump so the brakes are always loaded, engine on or off.

I wouldn't do EOC with any automatic transmission unless I could be assured by the manufacturer that it would not cause any problems or void any warranty. Most require pressure to engage and disengage the bands. I have seen a lot of Nissan ATs die quickly and catastrophically when towed with the rear wheels on the ground. Totally destroyed.
Engine on is fine as the tranny hydraulic pump is providing pressure and lubrication to all components.

regards
Mech

That's suprising, I am on a Chevelle/ El Camino forum (Team Chevelle), and a large number of people there gas mileage very seriously. One of the main factors/ advantages of the ever popular LS swap, same with overdrive transmissions. We even had a popular thread a while back about what to do to improve gas mileage.

I suppose "Buy a Honda" wasn't a popular answer! :p

This was quite a few years ago. Perhaps the mod that took offense- I think his name was Candy***?- has had an epiphany about it or is no longer a mod...

Yes, I guess I should have said once you lose vacuum after the first good brake application or power steering application. Point I was trying to make is that EOC is disabling engineered components on your car...and the car's performance will undoubtably suffer. My second point was that the loss in performance at that point is MORE so than a guy running a 6" suspension lift on a chassis that could maybe upsize tires by about 20%. I'm still willing to see a side by side comparo of a lifted truck next to a vacuum depleted EOC truck. If I'm wrong, well than at least we'll have data to go on instead of internet opinion eh?!
First Point is that the lifted truck will be more consistent with braking distances and handling than a car that is in between EOC and 'normal'. So the safety thing was not a good analogy as a lifted truck braking could be compared to an old 60's small car in stopping distance/handling (meaning that the give vehicle has on average a defined expectation of it's performance and that the driver is responsible to understand those limits). A car that has to be monitored based on vacuum pressure, because it is being cycled on/off is another human induced variable (point of failure outside of the car's mechanical properties) so the OP stating that the lifted car is just as unsafe as his EOC technique wasn't a good comparison because it's comparing technique to mechanical limitations. We don't compare the handling/braking characteristics of an 18 wheeler to a Lotus do we?

Was it on Team Chevelle? People rarely get banned there, usually on personal attacks, or extremely vulgar, unneeded comments. There are always differences of opinions on forums, TC usually stays pretty civilized though.

Candy didn't agree with my posts, which is fine, and I didn't post "bannable" stuff; what Candy did was read a PM of mine to another member and that put him over the top. :rolleyes:

I was originally on there for the wealth of 283 info- there's some old guys there with loads of experience with those and the 283 is one of my favorite small block Chevys (I have several of 'em and was in the middle of hopping one up at the time).

The most repeated myth I find on car forums is that a CAI will improve FE. There is no amount of reasoning with people because it's a religious topic.

Below is just part of a discussion I attempted to have on the jeepkj forum.

My best mpgs in my CRX were in WYO.; high elevation w their regions 85 octane instead of my home life 87.

Tried a mpg discussion on a CRX forum once; it was old school no interest...you are wasting space w your talk, old school brains in SOME young punks.

I'm new to the Jeep forum, so I clearly know nothing. tjkj2002, with several thousand posts obviously knows everything. Every comment in that thread just reaffirmed the position of their leader as all knowing. Not a single person was brave enough to disagree with him.

The problem with (some) old people is that they remember how things used to be and assume the same applies today. tjkj2002 insults me by saying everyone since 70 years ago knows elevation kills FE. Yes, but as a "master tech" he fails to realize that almost nobody drives with a carburetor these days, and the engine management adjusts for the reduced air density.

Impossible to discuss logic to the masses, who are quick to fall for ad hominems, appeals to authority, and straw man arguments.

Not my yob to drag Morons out of their pit of stupidity. If they choose to waste energy in their daily routines, why should I try to make them understand the error of their ways.

regards
Mech

you would think that an ASE master tech would understand modern fuel injection systems and be able to spell.

I am tempted to head back over to fordrangerforum and stir up some CAI/WAI trouble.

this ought to go over like a lead zeppelin over at FRF. :)

And yes, "that ought to go over like a lead zeppelin" is how the greatest band in history came about its name. It was said by Keith Moon.

I get a similar kind of response on RV boards, whether of more affluent, higher education, or in more common blue collar contributor forums: silence.

Which, when one thinks about it, makes little sense. Not all RV'ers are well-to-do, and many if not most (among the retired) are on fixed incomes. And, as this concerns those savvy enough to participate on Internet forums, the possible resources available (starting with definitions) is profound in itself . . but no real takers.

One may enter a discussion and suggest starting from scratch to spec the one or two vehicles being acquired for best mpg (among other attributes), or in more specific cases of a type, that vehicle and driver can both be improved, and not a high or prohibitive cost. Even short of appearance changes there are no real "takers".

Then, from the widest perspective, how to make an annual fuel budget that accurately tracks use, to:

1] Use less gallons to perform the same work in non-RV miles; and,

2] To "trip plan" effectively to use those "saved" gallons wisely with the RV

. . still no takers.

They'll argue hitches, tires, particular vehicles, etc, till threads are closed on rancor alone.

But FE barely makes a blip.

I've shown more than once that effective use of my truck on all miles (gallons savings, dollar savings, cpm savings) effectively underwrites from 5-15k annual miles "free"

An astonishing silence ensues considering the Number One place of fuel costs for operational expenses. May not "like" me, but not even PM's to ask for more source material to sidestep my perhaps mistaken assertions (to put it diplomatically).

The links I've put up (as with AEROLID) is not taken up by others.

Much moaning and groaning, but besides "slow down" and "fewer trips" and/or "fewer miles" the association of RV and mpg is not taken seriously.

Yet, just look at 9-mpg Class C motorhomes and Orbywans' 15-mpg Class C. And it is good looking.

I could continue with other work and ideas being pursued around here, and remain surprised that some overlap hasn't or isn't occuring. There is no lack of informed DIY and fabrication skills among these sub-groups.

.

Well without knowing what was said I can't comment any farther on it, but that site definitely is an incredible wealth of knowledge. I have been on there for a few years and have gotten so much help, and learned so much from there. I love that site. There is a few guys with a lot of interest in gas mileage, and all sorts of other fun. One guy just posted some details on his 555" twin turbo big block for his vette, something about 1200+ hp on the street seems pretty fun. :eek::thumbup:

only 1200?

pffttttt.

wonder what sort of mpg he gets in that thing?

do you think he EOCs it?

prolly not.

Some people have the hobbies they have, to show off their wealth. If you start talking to them about saving money (especially if it means having visibly DIY-bits on their vehicles) their brain will tilt and go into violent cognitive dissonance mode immidiately.

And yet, we allow both to legally operate on the same roads.

The argument raised in the OP was not that EOC-ing is less safe than driving normally, but that it is "crazy and dangerous." Neither claim is true. As pointed out by others, cars with power brakes maintain assist for some time after the engine is shut off (in the case of my car, for several hours); secondly, if one is EOC-ing properly, one does not use the brakes unless an emergency arises, so they are not being "depleted"; thirdly, if use of the brakes is necessitated for any reason, the driver can simply restart the engine and regain assist. Compared to the consistent decrease in braking performance and handling in a vehicle with a lifted center of gravity and tires designed to go offroad, any rational person would not try to argue that a vehicle coasting with the engine off but maintaining stock braking capabilities is more dangerous.