Bought a New Honda Insight
 

I finally took the plunge and bought new Honda Insight! :D

Specs:
2010 Honda Insight EX 5-Door (non-Navigation)
Black over Dark Blue
98-Hp 1.3L SOHC 8-Valve 4-cyl (with 123 ft-lbs. torque total from the electric motor)
IMA Hybrid System coupled to a CVT Automatic with Paddle Shifters

We waited to take advantage of year-end deals and came away with a low interest rate and competitive out-the-door price. I had to wait on a dealer trade (through 2 snow storms), so we took delivery yesterday (I would take a pic, but it's currently covered in road salt and snow :o)

Decision to Purchase:
This decision has been based on research over about 8 months (with much input from threads here at EcoModder -- thanks to those who tolerated my ramblings :) ). Since becoming an EcoDriver, I knew that it was important to replace my daily driver with one that offered significantly better FE and emissions. Smaller, gas-powered vehicles didn't offer the room or FE that a new hybrid could. The 2010 Prius line was simply too expensive in base trim. I was able to purchase the upper lever EX-trim much cheaper. The excellent family track record with Honda/Acura reliability sealed the decision. A used Prius was an attractive prospect, but didn't fit the long-term replacement scheme with the higher odometer readings for cheaper models. The gap began to close on new vs. used. Financing, insurance, and personal ownership maintenance made new, cheaper.

Driving Impression:
There is an abnormally high amount of snow on side streets and blowing snow on highways and elsewhere in the KC Metro area. From mile #000014 to ~50, the average FE has been a touch over 40 MPG with some short-runs on cold starts. Winter performance is excellent, with a host of stability, braking, and traction controls/aides. It really just trudges through the snow with ease. During earlier test drives, the Honda felt more responsive than the Prius (up to '09) and has better interior and instrument panel, in my opinion. The 2nd Gen. Prius is used in comparison due to pricing. FE is down in comparison, but the cost, simplicity and brand loyalty won out.

When the weather improves, a better analysis can be offered (it's currently windy, near zero-F temps with significant snow cover). Over 5 test drives in good weather, I liked the driver feedback, driving position, ECO feedback/operations system (regulates a variety of systems, including heating-A/C, muted throttle response, and mild cruise control response), and the styling is pretty swift. The FE potential is there: documented moderate EcoDriving yields 60 MPG. I'm looking forward to getting some good numbers after the break-in procedure.

I really enjoy driving this car. It's simple and efficient, yet still has personality.

Teggy is still in the stable as a Winter runner and for trips to the recycling center plus other cargo.

Once it warms up, expect a full report. I need to dive into the research here, learn a whole new driving style, and get to know the new Insight.

RH77

RH77 -

Congratulations! One of my friends got a black 2nd Gen Insight and she loves it.

CarloSW2

Thanks for the review. The problem with a new car is that you're not likely to want to stick a bunch of Coroplast all over it for blocks and dams and whatever.:eek:

I'm jealous, congrats. Temps are supposed to be in the 30s and 40s all next week.

Congrats on the purchase. I look forward to seeing what a competent driver can get out of the 2nd gen Insight.

Yes, it'll be good to see what an EcoModder can do with the new Insight. Even though it's brand new, I hope you do decide to slap on some plexiglass and coroplast. Maybe some body-colored rear wheel skirts?

That's very good mileage for this kind of weather. I don't know about the 2010 Insight, but my 2000 has the same battery chemistry, and IMA is unimpressive in single-digit °F weather. Regenerative braking is so weak I mostly just DWB instead, and the battery's usable capacity is tiny. I still need regen to run 12V loads, so I allow it to regen in the background while the engine is warming up, so it warms up faster.

Good luck with yours, and post with your findings as you figure out how to drive a CVT IMA.

Thanks for the well-wishes (and complements on driving style). I still have a LOT to learn :o

I probably won't do a whole lot of modding at first -- mostly driving style adjustments and just learning the car.

Buying this car was a huge pain. I just simplified the process and made offers, "out-the-door" without options -- so no EBH or floormats yet. I can get some cheapy mats, but the block heater would have been a nice addition. I should have an OEM heater installed by next Fall/Winter. With the black paint and dark interior, I'm really in the market for a beaded seat cushion :thumbup:

The plan is to drive without a lot of technique at first, to establish a well-defined baseline.

In some highway driving today, it's definitely apparent that it needs a little more aero help to pull off some decent numbers (the majority of my driving is highway). The TSX has a better Cd, but the Insight's CdA is unpublished or hard to find :confused:. There are several aero treatments, so where it needs help has to be carefully examined.

The regen seems to be pretty aggressive, but at the same time, it easily digs into the "assist" during even light acceleration. With a light foot, you can run completely on the engine around the neighborhood, even in 4-6" of snow accumulation. Temps haven't cracked 10F yet, and FE remains at 38.x. The number dropped after 70 MPH runs on the highway. Odo = 99 miles.

I need to attach the SG to monitor a few parameters. There's no temp gauge, just a "Cold" dash light. Maybe it could benefit from warmer intake air. It would be easy to adjust and put it back to stock for the free oil changes :p

In the meantime, I may throw on the data-logger to see what's going on in there.

More to come!

RH77

EV-Only Mode
 

I discovered a way to run in "EV" mode pretty easily.

At speeds greater than ~11 MPH, lifting the accelerator, then very lightly applying throttle evokes power from the battery only. There is some drag from the engine as it maintains compression, with the valves in the closed position, but downhill runs or efficient deceleration can be manipulated.

I haven't found much at all on driving this vehicle efficiently (or the highly technical aspects), so the plan is to compile some methods and information as a primer in developing a separate thread.

Other HI-2 owners are welcomed to add any info... :thumbup:

RH77

Congrats, Rick! Nice to see you managed to bag one.

(Special request: please don't call it a "HI-2". :) Some sites are maddening in their use of acronyms that make it hard for newbies coming fresh to the world of high effciency cars & mods to ease into new knowledge. Why add more TLA hurdles?)

Happy to see another hybrid join the fleet. Envious even! Looking forward to following your progress with it.

Way to go Rick!

I am so jealous because the Honda Insight came out two months after I bought my Honda Accord last year!

I would have bought one if I had to do it all over again.

Many people are going to be watching your MPG values. I hope you knock it out of the park! :thumbup:

Thanks! (and request granted) It was a lazy shortcut on my part (and ends up making it harder to find in a search, as I've learned). I shall further call it "The Second Generation, Two-Thousand Ten, Honda Insight 5-Door" :p ...or next gen Insight. :)

...and not to worry, Teggy will continue with more aggressive modification and is planned for many of the 104-mile roundtrip airport runs (and long, dusty parking durations).

As far as mods for the Insight, once Winter goes away, the tires will be maxed on pressure -- otherwise, I need to monitor engine parameters for how it handles higher temps (read: grille block, warm air intake, etc.) Probably not a lot until the 3/36 is up on the warranty). The dual ignition may benefit from higher octane with higher temps, but it's only a theory. There is some "Atkinsonization " under certain loads, so I'm sure it has a host of sensors to prevent excessive knock or too-lean-burn. I may see what Prius owners have done and adapt...

-Rick

Check out the Honda I-DSI engine information sites to understand how the dual ignition works.

regards
Mech

Congrats on the purchase. Whenever i'm in the market for a new car (hopefully won't be for a while) this is the car that i'm planning to get. If u haven't already, check out insightcentral.net. I've read a lot of good posts there and some guys on the site can pull mid to upper 50's if not 60mpg during the warmer weather. I look forward to seeing what ur plans are for the car.

RH77 -

I am going to hurt your feelings. I can't tell you have an Insight II from your avatar. Can you change it to maybe a front view of the Insight, or maybe the instrument cluster in ALL GREEN LEAFY mode?

:)

CarloSW2

Or the second-gen Insight in profile, or from behind? From that angle, it looks like it could be a Fit, and that's no fun.

Congrats! Enjoy the ride amigo. :turtle:

It was a quicky update, maybe the new avatar is better?

The instrument cluster is pretty neat, but only has one "green leaf", so to speak, when the "ECO-Assist" is on (the Ford Fusion takes the prize for green overgrowth) :p

It grows little gray leafs in one instrument view, as you continue to drive efficiently. There are little trophies for major milestones, etc.

One beef with the design -- you can't view 2 functions at once -- for example, the instant/average MPG and the IMA monitor (arrows indicating the engine's current function, battery charge / deplete, or "EV" mode) -- cannot be viewed at the same time. It's a minor fix that the SG can provide, once I find a good spot for it (also the port is currently occupied, while collecting OBD-II data).

Here's the factory view of the instrument cluster:

http://automobiles.honda.com/images/...y/gal_lg12.jpg

I really like the tach-centric design and separate speedo. No temp gauge though :confused:

I had a ~75 mile mixed run in rush hour yesterday and averaged 50 MPG for the trip. There is some definite potential to be tapped here. On the next tank, I plan to really milk the mileage (but still breaking it in on this tank) :)

Once the road spray goes away (and the sun returns), I can get a car wash and try for some decent photos.

RH77

RH77 -

Mmmmmuch better! The grill is iconic of the new Insight, so my oh-so-quickly failing eyeballs are much happier with this image.

Thank You!

CarloSW2

RH77,
Is there a way to do a "warm air modification" to a 2010 Insight?
I own a 2002 providing the intake warm air from behind the catalytic converter, rather than cold air from the front of the car makes a big difference in gas mileage.

I'm not sure the gain would be as big in the non-lean burn 2nd gen Insight. Isn't attaining earlier & holding lean burn one of the biggest advantages of thermal management in the 1st gen?

Yes, the main purpose was to hold lean burn more easily.
I wonder if there still may be some gains even in a non-lean burn Insight.

Since the filter-box is close to the engine, a snorkel tube is used to pull cool air from the grille area, as typical. It seems simple to remove the tube and use a custom setup to redirect the source from the exhaust manifold area (which has been an easier location to source warm air quickly). This time it's on the back of the engine as opposed to Teggy.

So, with the 3-stage VTEC, there's the typical high-performance cam lobe, but also the ability for cam independence (EV-Mode, Valves Closed), and a low-speed cam for motor-independence (I'm thinking this mode may benefit most from warm air). The dual-stage ignition adds another level of complexity. There isn't a lot of documentation on this engine's specific operation.

I have about 100 miles-worth of sensor data to review. Perhaps it will give some "insight" into engine operation. (insert canned laughter here)

RH77

Was admiring a black one today; quite a looker. It's no Tempo, but it would do. :thumbup:

Honda Media Newsroom Release: 2010 Honda Insight - Powertrain

Specifics on the Insight 2 engine from Honda.

regards
Mech

Nice find. The following paragraph is where I really want to learn more...

How these sensors play on one another is the key. I guess it's not unlike any other modern, fuel-injected plant, but at least the press release gives me the bank of sensors to collect and compare data values under different variables.

Frank -- I had to get the black one with dark interior (which was hard to find). It gives it a sportier look, IMO. But alas, it's no Tempo. I found out recently that my Wife's family had a Tempo back in the 90's (high school years -- until it was in a bad accident that totalled it :( ) It may have still been around today!

RH77

Black- sweet! Maybe in 10 years I'll look for one of these well used...

If the price of ten year old Toyonda hybrids is any indication, you may have to wait twenty. ;)

Congrats on the purchase! As another driver new to the hybrid game I know how much fun it is to see the awesome numbers these cars can pull. Like you, I was considering a Prius until I realized that even fairly high mileage examples still weren't going to be had cheaply. And ultimately I'm glad I went the route I did, because not only did I pay at least 3 grand less than I would have for a Prius with similar mileage, but I got to satisfy my stick shift fix (not even possible with current hybrids) and got a car with nice crisp handling too. I never test drove a Prius but if it's anything like other Toyotas it just doesn't have the involving driving experience that my Civic has. The more I drive it the more impressed I am with this car's handling. Even with 70 series tires it has very little lean or understeer and great road feel. As someone who appreicates good handling I'm curious what your driving impressions are of the Insight, did they keep the Honda genes or borrow some from Toyota?

I'm glad you like your Civic! I also didn't want to completely trade-off a sporty edge for FE or price -- it's a good compromise.

There is definitely a learning curve with the Hybrid transition -- although without trying, I'm getting what would be my best tank from the Integra. The goal is already achieved with the purchase, but more potential is there...

I miss not having a stick shift, but the 7-speed CVT understands the IMA and i-DSi system better than I could ever figure. If I want some fun rev-time, the paddle shifters can drop the ratio or into an adaptive "Low" range :thumbup: With the higher FE numbers, any lapse into "heavy footedness" drops the tank average quite a bit, so I'm hesitant (also, I still need to break the engine in before a redline runup). I had an uphill highway merge into fast traffic yesterday -- it all came together to get up to speed quickly, at about 5000 RPM and full assist.

We have had a lot of snow (which is now melting), so I haven't had the chance to test the suspension on dry pavement yet. So far it retains "Honda handling" (the little tires would likely break loose before body roll forces them to push). There's a nice corner that I can test over/under steer that is just waiting for some sun. The ride is pretty stiff, which may translate into some sporty handling. My true test of handling is the double lane-change / slalom. I left the factory-spec air in the tires for a true baseline (and for snow/ice traction).

So far, I'd say that it's "Responsive" -- more to follow on the review!

RH77

Congrats! I like the exterior looks better than the Prius and it's sportier for sure. Have fun. looking forward to your post-baseline numbers.

What's the stock rubber on the Insight?

Dunlop SP31A - 175/65/R15 (fairly narrow with a tall aspect ratio)

They are marketed as having a low RR -- so far, snow traction is excellent, compared to a similar (low RR and sized) Michelins and a set of new BFG's on the TSX. I'm not crazy about the aspect ratio, but the 15" wheels should add a little more "sport" than the 14s.

I had a beef with a defective Dunlop tire that blew into 2-sections on a new Civic in '96 -- it involved a call from their attorney instead of customer service (and just how rudely they handled the claim). Since then, I vowed not to buy another Dunlop, but I suppose Honda did on my behalf this time (shakes fist). Hopefully they have improved in quality...

RH77

Have you settle in yet on the ride? I had Dunlops on the Mazda. :(
Warmers temps this week hows she doing?

RH77 -

So this is what your tread looks like? :

Dunlop SP31 A/S
http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires...1_as_ci1_l.jpg
Rated at 44 PSI max and weighing 16 lbs.

It has an interesting outside tread. It alternates between series of "I" slits and series of "H" slits in the rubber.

CarloSW2

Yup, that's the tire. I noticed the channel the other day -- I'm thinking it's may carry similar components from the Goodyear "Aquatread" to move water away from the outside tread.

Apparently they get loud after a while. I would oppose with the deep snow votes at the Tire Rack website. On the contrary, the vehicle itself may handle traction well. I'm basing it on climbing up a sloped driveway in about 6+ inches of snow -- it just dug its way in and gently ascended the grade. While moving 3 other vehicles on the same day ('05 Civic, TSX and Teggy) they all became stuck and required running starts to make it. Around town and on the highway, 2-3" of accumulation proved to be no problem.

Wet Weather forward traction is good, as is skid-pad adherence (off-ramps), and resistance to hydroplaning. But this is all on less than 300 miles. Dry performance is pending on, well, dry weather :o

The Insight is getting break for a while -- I'm driving a rental '09 Ford Fusion V-6 until next Friday for work. 221 HP is quite a lot (it seems like way too much)! It cruises at about 28 mpg highway, which is considerably less than the 4-cylinder version. Monday I had an '09 Focus SE in South Bend for about 20 miles (it's a nice evolution of the model lineup). Ford is looking good these days -- the quality seems to have returned. Perhaps more on those later :)

RH77

Any more impressions to share about the new car, Rick? You've had it nearly a month...

Definitely! I just got my plates, so it has been a month...

First, the car is fun to drive (either as an EcoDriver, or average Joe). Acceleration can be brisk if needed, but is rarely used. Handling at the limit is quite neutral on stock tire pressures (there is little compromise in this category), but with slight understeer. But we focus on FE here, right?

The hybrid system is a complex balance of give-and-take. The goal is to only use the battery when needed, since it takes more energy to charge than receive. It takes added concentration to achieve 50+ MPG. Engine-on coasting is common and manipulating the "ECO" button allows hill climbs without depleting the battery (and requires some downshifing to balance engine vs. motor. It tends to have a mind of its own, managing the system, so it takes some practice.

The interior room is great and features are more than adequate. At 650 miles, it still needs time to wear-in and offer maximum FE. Honestly, I look forward to driving it, simply to learn more about it, and just to enjoy the road.

For the money, I found it to be the best deal (there is plenty of room for 4-5 passengers and cargo). Conversely, it appeals to the untrained hypermiler, so it tends to charge the battery when you don't want it to, but allows smoother driving (with ECO-on). I found that there are intricacies to master. Still, it's a fun ride.

I'm on the 2nd tank in Winter, with the SG showing 47 MPG. Once the vehicle breaks-in, this should improve.

The battery pack is small and weaker in comparison to the Prius, but at a fraction of the price for what you get. The interior layout is driver-intuitive and very appealing. The SG is a must to get instant FE and to simultaneously see the info-display of operation (i.e., what is used: battery, ICE, and combos).

Compared to the Integra, the temptation of excess power isn't there, so I find myself driving more efficiently. Overall, I wish I could program or control the hybrid system (without voiding the warranty), but that's part of the challenge :thumbup:

RH77

Anything new to report?

The latest and best tank (in warmer weather) has been nearly 46 MPG -- it snowed 6-8" and pulled-down the total at the end, or it may have gotten close to 50.

I haven't been driving much. I blew-out a disc in my lower back and had some surgery, so mostly just short trips will the norm for a few weeks.

The car does everything I want and need it to. It's either sporty and responsive or easy-going and efficient. Either way, it hauls cargo quite well.

Interior styling and ergonomics are cutting-edge. Despite its quirky, outward appearance, I've gotten some random compliments on on dash design and interest on how it drives, etc. For a discrete little car, it can draw some curiosity.

The battery's weak capacity is the biggest complaint. You have to keep in mind that it takes more energy to charge than it takes to assist. The best practice to keep a light foot, scrub speed on hills, and charge it up when you can. Also, the Auto-Stop system has a mind of its own (won't shut-down when expected), which is normal. Several criteria have to be met, especially in cooler weather. These are frankly minor beefs, for the overall price of the vehicle.

Basically, most of the techniques we learn here can be applied. EOC is discouraged with the CVT, so other tricks have been used: one is to shift to neutral to allow more distance when needed and then "brake" with the electric motor/generator with the brake pedal or in-gear-coast to make sure the batt stays topped-off. Key off re-booting the system isn't the most efficient on startup, either.

Mods: 50 PSI in the tires, and WAI (which will be changed to stock when it warms-up). It has a great personality

In short, I still love driving the Insight. Every trip is an opportunity for a record run, but while having fun at the same time.

More to come when I'm not recovering...

RH77

Just curious, does the 2nd gen Insight also use a NiMH battery, or have they come up with something new? Also, is there any way to wire up an IMA inhibit switch on your car? On my car it is a simple as a switch parallel to the clutch safety switch, I'm not sure if there is a way to do this on an auto.

It's NIMH, Formula.

---

Good to read another update, Rick. Now rest up and take care of that back!