Coolant level controlled fan or shutters
 

Most of an engines waste is heat.

How about controlling the coolant fan with a coolant level sensor-actuator.

Basically a float that tells you what the level of coolant is in the recovery bottle and maintains that level with shutters and the normal cooling fan, mostly electric.

Shutters to get it hotter and the fan when it needs to be cooler. Inflatable grille block for air flow regulation, too cold blow them up, too hot deflate them.

Simple cheap and easy.

regards
Mech

The coolant level in the recovery bottle is determined by the coolant temp. As the coolant warms up and expands, it starts to fill the bottle proportional to temperature.

You propose to indirectly measure temperature by the level in the recovery bottle. In order for this to work, the cooling system must have a precise amount of coolant in it. Any change in coolant quantity will throw the temp calibration out. Wouldn't it make more sense to measure the temperature directly like they do already? It would be easy to take a LM34 sensor, plug it into an Arduino and let the chip to the rest.

No, it would not make more sense to measure coolant in any specific spot, that does not give you the ability to regulate the average temperature of the whole cooling system.

The system I am proposing would maintain the same average temp in the regardless of the ambient temp. In normal systems the temperature of the coolant exiting the radiator changes dramatically and contributes to wintertime MPG losses.

regards
Mech

How about blocking off the front end of the car for better aero and let the fan do its job when its warm enough? Maybe use the heater setting to help offset the cooling needs?

That was the inflatable grille blocks job.

Restrict air flow to bring the cooling system to the desired AVERAGE temperature. Deflate them when it starts to get too hot, then only add the electric fan after the grille block has deflated for max air flow. Now you are controlling the temperature of the coolant ENTERING the engine after going through the radiator. THAT temp varies greatly depending on ambient temps but this would control the radiator EXIT coolant temperature. Normal thermostats control the coolant temp as it leaves the engine but there is no real control of the temp of the coolant ENTERING the engine.

The hotter the coolant entering the engine the less heat absorbed from the engine, part of why summer mileage is better.

Think of it as varying the size of the radiator to match the ambient temperature.

regards
mech

not sure what kind of terrain you deal with, but this would be quite difficult to impliment around here without some significant signal filtering.....

uphill, downhill, uphill, downhill, uphill with 10,000 unavoidable potholes, left, right, down.......

it's a pain.

what could be done using "dumb" hardware is to setup a resistor/capacitor to smooth out a float signal, which would be used by a schmitt trigger to control whatever you want. setup the RC filter so that it takes an instant movement of the float from minimum to maximum to take(for instant) 60 seconds for the voltage to match reality and it could do well, but it wouldn't take very happily to rapidly changing conditions.

the schmitt trigger is setup to use a hysteresis, so it won't cause the opposite action to happen at the same voltage level, so instead of (for instance) the grill block closing again once the coolant level is at 87.5% of maximum(more instance examples), you could set it up so that it would wait until the level dropped to 50% of maximum.....



of course, using a lot of the same hardware, you could use a temperature sensor instead of a float and control it using that.



for the ultimate in control...... you have to go with some type of logical controller(meaning, writing code), you could go so far as to write some self-learning subroutines and have the controller learn how much grill opening is required to maintain your target temp at various road speeds and ambient air temperatures.

i realize this sounds complicated, but as someone who has written a lot of 6800 assembly, i tend to simplify things that are in reality quite difficult for anyone that has no programming experience.

You stole my idea you *******!!!

http://ecomodder.com/forum/414485-post31.html
http://ecomodder.com/forum/414487-post33.html

How about using a blower to make an air curtain like they use at some stores to go across the grill, then it turns off with a reverse relay when cooling is needed so air can go through the grill. Then when its cool again it powers up and the air curtain returns?

So if you had a small loss of coolant, wouldnt things spiral away?

that is actually a good point.... and certainly the worst failure mode possible.

Lots of cars already have a low coolant warning sensor, in many cases it is a float in the overflow bottle.
Also used to indicate low brake fluid levels in the master cylinder reservoir.

I actually thought this was a great idea but after reading the responses here you would think I am either an idiot or a thief.

Maybe it's the other way around. Maybe some here are regularly adding coolant to their systems like their car was powered by a steam engine, instead of fixing the problem.

In 40,000 miles I have never added coolant to my wifes car or to my car, or even to my17 year old truck.

Any sensor configuration would also be capable of informing the operator of any initial low coolant situation DUH! That's not even a legitimate concern unless you operate a vehicle that is constantly loosing coolant. I can smell blown head gaskets following cars down the road.

You're posting on a web forum that is open for the world to see. Unless you have a patent, anything you post here is up for grabs. No offense, but get over it. We are here to help each other save fuel, not hoard ideas. If you don't want people using 'your ideas', keep them to yourself and get a patent.

Before the accuser ever posted on this forum , in fact years ago I posted about methods of regulating the radiator outflow coolant temperature. This temperature can change byas much as 100 degrees depending on ambient temperature.

The radiator is sized for maximum capacity, hot summer temps, AC on, climbing an8% grade for say ten miles with maximum passenger load.

When its freezing outside and especially at lower temperatures with good airflow over the radiator the radiator capacity is probably 3 times what is needed. In some especially cold places you would need only the heater core to keep the engine cool.

After blocking the lower radiator in my Fiesta, the mileage increase was equal to driving in ambient temperatures 40 degrees warmer than were present. The foam pipe insulation I used cost 92 cents each and it took 3 with about 40% waste, probably could have used 2 if I wanted splices. All it took was vertical slits to fit over the vertical supports on the otherwise horizontal grille louvres.

That was two months ago at least a month before the person who is screaming thief ever made a single post on this forum at least under their present user name.

The coolant recovery bottle level was an inspiration I think. I guess someone could spend months doing a patent search including the complete internet to see if their was someone who came up with this idea previously. I posted it here knowing full well it eliminated any possibility of a patent being issued.

I think and the evidence supports this thinking, that if you can control the temperature of the coolant exiting the radiator you could see a significant gain in mileage, probably 5% or more depending on how cold it is outside.

I was looking at the pipe insulation in my Fiesta grille and another inspiration came to me. Use a bicycle tube instead of the pipe insulation and make them inflatable to control the amount of air flow you want to block.

Been a member here for 4 years now or close I have developed, with or without other imputs, a practical inexpensive means of controlling the outflow exit temperature.

I do not remember reading any post about using bicycle tubes or using the level of recovery bottle coolant to control the AVERAGE temperature of the cooling system, which resolves the issue with coolant exit temperature.

It would not surprize me a bit that some other person or manufacturer has not thought of this before me, maybe they even got a patent on it, but as far as me stealing this idea from anyone here DAOX has it right. Post it here with out prior protection and if it is a good idea shouldn't you expect it to be borrowed (stolen in a wackadoodles mind).

Read my slow progress thread. Christ was considerate enough to ask if he could copy my design, to which I replied feel free to copy anything I post here, but thanks for asking.

regards
Mech

I'm blocking my grills for about 90% now, what I see its the temperature rises when driving slow or with the wind rather than fast or against the wind.

Way before the engine temp gets too hot the intake air temp rises dramatically.
I see FE suffer if it rises above 40°C, but cars with no EGR can likely take more heat and still do good.

If I would make my grill block operable I'd switch it by the intake air temp.
EDIT On second thought, then I'd better switch on a fan to draw cool air in to the intake from right behind the grill...

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...emps-2785.html

6 year old post

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...n-16207-5.html

and another but 2012.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...e-21227-2.html

and another. Just use the search function under "radiator outlet temperature".

Old Mechanic no worries .. either someone needs a pill or forgot to take it

maybe some here are repairing their vehicle too regularly...if thats a thing...in the last 40k mi i guess i just havent had as good of luck, replaced a water pump a couple yrs ago, radiator about a yr ago, then 6mo or so after the radiator the petcock on the radiator inexplicably decided to back it self out a bit and start leaking. 2 of the 3 times i noticed coolant on the ground before the low coolant light was tripped (another benefit of backing into your parking spots).
the float system would work great under normal conditions, just would need some sort of fail safe. (open grill at some high temp threshold regardless of coolant level)
the float for the grill blocking system seems that it would be set higher than the low coolant sensor, leaving a narrow zone where when you start to lose coolant, but before the low coolant light was on, where the grill would remain closed.

depending on the vehicle, the low coolant level switch is sometimes mounted in the radiator..... it doesn't come on until the reservoir is completely empty and a couple of inches of coolant in the radiator don't exist.

Why you scamming ideas mech? :P

Patent US4804139 - Cooling system for a water-cooled vehicle engine - Google Patentler

Long time ago

:)

I was joking of course. Everyone on here knows your one of the best contributors to this site and have done more than most before most of us.

How about 1916.

Automotive Industries - Google Books

Brilliant responses, OleMech.

Old Mech, when I saw the pipe foam to block off, it was a DUH! that is brillant idea.

My air dam was scrap from a neighbor, I just had to buy the self drilling screws. The other neighbor had a roof put on and they left a scrap of flashing that I used to block the grill. I used more of the screws from before...and I painted it flat black since is was bright silver.

What also was not seen is I used a piece of roll up sled put out for garbage to further block the radiator. I would us it to adjust for ambient temps even after the grill block.

Not only did I see MPG gains, but I was also drag racing as well on some Friday nights. Just dropping the rear bumper cover, aka the parachute dropped .3 seconds off the mid 15 second ET. I later trimmed a bumper cover for ok looks without the parachute effect.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...c/P9060014.jpg

The idea about the bumper was inspired by someone posting a underside picture of the VX deflector piece Honda installed from the factory.

Jason "Katman" took the picture....

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...flector_1a.jpg

I stumbled upon this thread..... lmao is about all I can say.

I had a thought, instead of measuring fluid level, what if you measure the pressure in the system. Pressure would not be dependant upon a specific fluid level.

I looked at my Fiesta last night and the "reserve bottle" is pressurized like the rest of the system. I also though about measuring pressure and using it as the control signal since it would take some work to build a float in a pressurized reservoir.

Since you are heating the coolant in a closed system, it's logical to think the pressure in the reservoir would be directly proportional to the expansion of the coolant so with that understood I think measuring the pressure could perform the same function.

It just seems to me, and I would bet the manufacturers are looking at this idea, that the precision of measuring the rise in coolant levels would allow the system to anticipate the rise in coolant level and perform corrective actions with a radiator or grille block to keep the whole cooling system at a precisely consistent level, which would mean you could maintain that average temperature at the ideal level for maximum efficiency.

You would not eliminate the thermostat or cooling fan actuation as was discussed in the1916 document. You are controlling the huge variation in average cooling system temperature depending on ambient temperature in current systems.

This would eliminate the losses incurred when winter temps cause the exit coolant temperature to plummet and the first cylinders that coolant hits are colder than the last cylinder. That potential 100 degree variation in exit coolant temperatures makes the thermostat close to restrict coolant flow,which only serves to exacerbate the problem. The system I am proposing would eliminate temp variation, improve efficiency, reduce pollution and made the heater work exactly the same in winter as it would in summer. Not saying that you would use it in summer.

regards
mech

Also a pressure switch could be easier to install in recovery bottles that are pressurized.

regards
Mech

I'm sure this has been discussed before (said the thief ;)) but how about exchanging heat between the flow to and from the radiator?
Maybe by using a heat exchanger but have both flows in the same direction, as to mix (instead of surpass) the temperature to the rad and to the engine?

Then the radiator would warm more evenly and the backflow will not be cold.
If it gets really hot the radiator will pretty much get fully heated anyway.
If the engine is cold some of the first heat flowing towards the radiator will flow back into the engine keeping it in the comfort zone.

Most systems have a bypass circuit that allows coolant to recirculate during warm up. The thermostat opens when the temp gets up to normal, but coolant is circulating through the engine even when the t-stat is closed.

I believe that the problem of overcapacity in cold temps should be approached
by a method that reduces the "effective capacity" of the radiator itself, which means blocking the grille to restrict airflow. This controls the capacity of the cooling system to remove heat from the engine, but would not have any effect when any situation would require that greater capacity to be utilized.

Coolant level changes are precisely relative to average system temperature. Even a 1 degree change increases the coolant level. This allows precise adjustments of air flow over the radiator to maintain that average temp within a few degrees regardless of the weather conditions.

regards
Mech

The bypass will most likely end up where the radiator return feed is, so indeed for the engine there is no gain in my concept.
But there is a benefit for the radiator.

The heat exchanger (heat 'mixer' would be a better description) makes the engine receive warmer water from the radiator; as a result the engine temp would rise so the thermostat will send more coolant to the radiator instead of the bypass circuit.

So heat exchanging will increase flow through the radiator.
It will also bring down the temperature of the water flowing into the radiator, so that heats up more evenly.
These effects both reduce thermal stress on the rad.

It will also prevent the buildup of pressure before the whole radiator is hot; even if the water leaving the engine is above boiling temperature, the drop from the exchanger will bring it down unless the reflux is boiling hot too.

In short; this would solve the uneven heating of the rad under low load but retain full capacity when needed.

This is not a substitute for active grill blocking, but could be a useful addition.
It will definitely make the system less critical to which method is chosen to switch the block.

How about just measuring the difference in level rather than the set level.

IE: your float must have a pot on it to send its level to... whatever (arduino?). When you power it up take the first readings as the "cool" temp, and then average it with the last 5-10 cool reading levels (in case you warm-started, that running average would save your bacon).

Then your louver opening/fan on temps would just be a certain level above this... to be experimentally determined. You would only run into issues if your coolant bottle went completely empty, but you could even add a check for that in your ardy code if you wanted (if the initial value is less than ____, turn on an LED).

I dont know, maybe its me, but either psi or level seems it would vary with water content in the fluid as well as the vehicle location to sea level.

How about measuring temp at the t stat to get a better reading or cylinder 1 where coolant typically enters an engine? I use to work in a machine shop and cylinder 1 was always the least distorted and the last cylinder where the fluid exited was the most distorted.

On many cars the temp sensor is either on the other side of the t stat or the throttle body. In many cases it the t stat can fail and your sg2 or analog gauge says cold.

To maintain a specific engine coolant temp, isn't the coolant absorbing the same amount of heat energy, only with varying volumes of coolant? (I.e. Thermostat)

Good question.I know in highschool we use to say ice made things colder. The prof would say it absorbs heat.

Well for a while as it opens it introduces cold coolant from parts of the car it was not circulated through like the block,heater core, then radiator. Then as those start to warm they radiate heat and provide more cooling.

Owning a scan gauge is fun to watch water temp. I use to dirve from a dead stop 43 miles. I notice I never got to operating temp but it constantly went up and down. If I got a stop light, just one. I would achieve operating temp and it would only go down maybe 3 degrees the rest of the trip.

Furthermore when I am in traffic I see up to 203 when the low speed fan kicks on. Once it seems heat soaked I never see it go below 185 for duration of that trip. .

With my car, coolant constantly circulates from radiator to engine block to heater core and back to radiator, no matter if the thermostat is opened or closed. This 406 heats up to operating temp fairly quickly even in cold weather (195° thermostat). When I data log with my laptop it will usually show about 190° unless it's over about 80° ambient temps, then it runs up to 205°. I blame the variation on the simplistic design of the t-stat.

Anyway, before the 406, it had the factory 305, which in the winter time would require blocking about half the radiator with cardboard, otherwise it would never reach operating temp.

I think (I could be mistaken) every engine is designed with a t-stat bypass to maintain a minimum flow of coolant thru the engine to minimize hot spots from forming in the water jacket. I guess sometimes the weather is cold enough the engine can't generate enough heat to soak the cooling system, so it never overcomes the heat loss from that bypass until you come to a stop and let the heat soak happen. Just my estimation.

Your original 305, the electric cooling fan(s) wouldn't kick on until 235-240...which was known to cause starting issues on the later TPI motors.

I had an 86 WS6 TA, 305 TPI Peanut Cam, used to be on Thirdgen.org.

I even have articles from Car & Driver about the Gale Banks 200 mph speed run.