To crossover or not to crossover? (Possible rant)
 

So maybe this is a rant that the moderators will need to come in, delete and ban me for an eternity but hopefully it will be more educational than just my emotions going.

As everyone knows crossovers are super popular in this day and age. Yet my internal spidey senses kick in and ask, "Why?! Oh, why?!" So I'd like to lay out my reasons against having one (while trying to be fair and respecting others opinions.)

From what I can tell, the main reasons people buy them are:

1. Safety.
2. Passenger and cargo room.
3. Off-road/snow/pothole capability.
4. Cost to performance and fuel mileage.

Safety.

Most people seem to feel that heavier is safer. Now I get the concept and feel that there is some truth it. But I do have two problems with this rule of thumb.

• Not all crossovers are heavier than all sedans. For an example, a Toyota RAV4 with the same options as a Toyota Camry only weighs 50-70lbs more. And seeing how the Camry costs less, it is possible that for the same amount of money you could get a Camry with more options (e.g. hybrid, AWD) that weighs a little more than the RAV4.
  
  Also note that this same thing can even be said of some full sized vehicles. For an example, a base Ford F-150 and a base Dodge Charger also weigh nearly the same.
  
  Another thing too is that there are some sedans weighing as much as 5,000lbs. But in the crossover's defence, such sedans are usually at a much higher price point than an economy model CUV that may be close to that same weight.
  
• Weight isn't the only factor in safety! Now, I can understand why some with a heavier-than-a-sedan CUV (or pickup or SUV) would consider weight to be the defacto standard to vehicle safety. There's a statistic you can find on the internet that states you're 7.6 more times likely to die from a head on collision between a full sized SUV and a compact car if you're driving the compact car.
  
  However, the statistic compare two extremes, the heaviest SUVs against the lightest of cars. But how's does an average CUV against an average sedan or hatchback fit into the picture?
  
  Add to that that there are other types of accidents that you could be statistically more likely to die from (or kill others such as your own kids) from driving a crossover. These include rollover accidents and running over pedestrians.
  
  Another factor in favor of sedans is the compartmentalized trunk. I actually knew of a woman who died from being hit from her own luggage from the back of her SUV in a single car accident. She was also reported to have been going only 25mph when she went off the road.
  
  Of course these one sided fun facts don't really don't tell us how the entire vehicle compares to all others in terms of safety. I must admit I'm no safety expert and it's hard to evaluate the true level of safety of a particular vehicle even going by crash test data, safety features and overall statistics. However, the fact that many small sedans and hatchbacks can have perfect five star crash test ratings, make their way to the IIHS's Top Safety Pick Plus category, and have great overall statistics for total deaths leads me to believe that you don't need a humongous vehicle to have a safe vehicle.

Passenger and cargo room.

Many people point out how much room they have in their CUV. But I have a couple thoughts on this.

• Station wagons and minivans do still exist. Buying a small SUV as if it were the only option to be able to haul stuff around isn't true. There are other vehicles that can have the same space or even more than your average CUV or even full sized SUV, and many times at a lower price point and better fuel mileage.
  
  For an example when Mazda came out with their CX line of crossovers their station wagons had more room, both for passengers and cargo, had more power, got better fuel mileage and cost less. Yet people still went bananas for their CUV's.
  
• Many times you're trading headroom for legroom. For an example, the Camry has more legroom than the RAV4. And this seems to be true of a lot of comparable CUV's and sedans. Personally, as long as my head isn't up against the ceiling I don't need an inch or two more than that to be comfortable, much less several inches above my head. I'd have the legroom instead.
  
  To be fair, I do see how the higher stance and shorter wheelbase of a CUV can be more comfortable for urban environments. Not having to get down into the car and then back up out of it at every stop to and from your home, work, store and school makes sense. But for extended periods, like road trips, with 3 or more people a full sized sedan, station wagon or a minivan make more sense IMO.
  
• Having a one-size-fits-all vehicle isn't always the most practical. Sure, I get the concept. What if you need to move a couch or dresser or something else that wouldn't fit in the trunk of a sedan? Well there do exist rental companies that rent box trucks and large vans or even 8' bed pickups for as little as $20. So you end up paying more for something that actually can move less or you still have to rent that moving van in the end anyway.

Off-road/snow/pothole capability.

Another reason I've heard people swear up and down went everyone and their dog should but a crossover is for driving in the snow. I've heard similar stories about how they need one to go camping or even just to navigate over pothole ridden streets to and from work. However, is this really so or are people exaggerating?

• You need good tires for snow and ice more than anything.Personally I don't get why so many think that having a CUV, pickup or SUV is imperative for driving in the snow. Having lived in the Colorado mountains all my life I've never really seen a need for a slightly higher ground clearance or AWD options. I means, sure, they help a little. But they main thing is traction. I've seen so many AWD CUV driver's get into the seat of a little FWD compact car with propper snow tires and then praise the car over and over again for it's superb traction. Not that you can't put winter tires on a crossover, of course.
  
• Money could be better spent elsewhere. If you have the money to get a CUV with AWD and snow tires you'll be pretty well set. But if you're on a budget, a cheaper vehicle, even a compact sedan or hatchback with a good set of winter tires is going to be way better than an AWD anything without winter tires, not to mention much cheaper.
  
• There are drawbacks to a taller vehicle and even AWD. One of the main things is over-confidence. Some people have been brainwashed into thinking that their AWD CUV is miraculously immune to the effects of bad weather. Because of that they tend to drive to fast for the weather and think that they don't need stuff like snow tires or tire chains.
  
  A higher center of gravity, especially on a shorter wheelbase CUV, also affects stability on any type of terrain. There's really shouldn't be driven faster than any other car, especially on icy surfaces. The word "sport" in "sport utility vehicle" refers to a different kind of sport than it does in "sports car."
  
  Also, if you're getting an AWD CUV because you think you (or you teen driver) will be safer, think again. 2WD tends to help send the signal to the brain that it's slick out and you need to take it easy. AWD makes it easier to take off making the novice driver not realize how slick it really is. Rarely does AWD save you from a dangerous situation. If you slide off the road and get stuck in a 2WD chances are you're probably not knowledgeable enough to be a safe driver in that kind of weather and are better off stuck in a snowbank.

Cost to performance and fuel mileage.

Lots of people like to say how their "SUV" costs the same as a sedan and gets car-like fuel mileage. Now crossovers are getting pretty close, but...

• They still tend to get worse fuel mileage and at times have less power. The laws of physics apply to all vehicles. If you make a vehicle big and boxy and maybe even a little heavier the result is it takes more energy to move the thing per mile. So whatever you do to make a CUV to get 30 or 40mpg could be getting a sedan or true station wagon some 40 or 50mpg.
  
  A lot of times CUV's are built on the same platform as lower profile cars with the same engines. But those engines have to be tuned to get better fuel mileage at the cost of getting less power. So you get less power, worse fuel mileage and potentially less space at the same time.
  
  To get better fuel mileage some manufacturers are even pushing for CUV coupés, which is something I don't know how to take. What is this vehicle? Tall yet sloped. Is this like making a big bore engine and then putting a small carburetor on it to see if that makes up for the other in fuel mileage?
  
• Electric CUV's make even less sense. The biggest challenges behind making EV's a practical option are 1) making a cost effective battery, 2) making the vehicle have enough range, and 3) being able to charge quickly at home and on the road. Taller and boxier work against these goals. There have been a few I've seen online that have even complained that the went from a Tesla Sedan with a smaller battery to a Tesla SUV/CUV with a bigger and more expensive battery yet end up getting less range. [
  
  I also noticed that the Tesla Model 3 with all it's frunk 'n trunk space doesn't have great cargo and passenger weight capacity. Just putting my family in one doesn't leave weight for any luggage. But the Model Y with even more space has even less weight capacity!

Of course, in the end I must admit that crossover utility vehicles aren't that much worse than your average sedan, hatchback or station wagon. Many would even suggest that there's not that much difference between a CUV and a station wagon. And with their popularity, they will only be improved more and more.

It's quite strange how vehicles which seemed to be nothing but a workhorse evolved into a status symbol for the middle-class, and it applies to both pick-up trucks and SUVs. There were times when Ford advertised the Willys Station Wagon (which it continued to make in Brazil after the local branch of Willys-Overland merged with Ford) as a direct contender to the VW Beetle for instance.

I'm not sure the rationalizations people give are real, it's just human see human do, they see a crossover being driven, they want to drive a crossover.

It all started with the CAFE-standards that drove people from cars to light trucks (i.e. SUVs)

But they see a Prius being driven and they call it "an ugly vehicle." :confused:

I think it's a see Arnold Schwarzenegger people do scenario.

CAFE standards effectively favored SUVs in the United States, but how could we explain why some car brands not available there are also following the SUV bandwagon?

On a sidenote, when it comes to "light trucks", if I had a choice nowadays I'd still rather get something like this...
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yzWw53kdI...o%2Bbranco.jpg

instead of a 2WD version of this...
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-u8pQAD1HJ...2Besquerdo.jpg

Wouldn't it depend on what you haul? Bulky cargo I can see a semi box, but 6 people commuting, no. Btw have you tried to put 6 normal sized people into a 4 door sedan lately?

Seeing how the front 3-person bench seat is gone (at least in the USA) hauling more than 5 people requires 3 rows of seats.

Sadly, the only smaller three row vehicles sold new in the USA are crossovers. Vehicles like the Prius v never got three rows here. Station wagons are non existent so you can't get those with or without the rows. I did really like the MAZDA5 which sadly never had the 7 seat version here and is no longer sold.

However, when it comes to bigger 3 rowed vehicles I find the mini vans much more roomy than the full sized SUV's.

Bingo, exactly my point as to why there are so many suv/crossovers. Plus the third row folds down so you have a station wagon sort of.

Btw I believe you can still get a chevy Belair and a mercedes station wagon. The chevy is a custom build, I don't do mercedes. We have one of each here in Reno that I have seen.

But that brings up another point I don't like about the crossover/SUV invasion. It's killing other designs. Three row station wagons have and do exist. But the only station wagons available in the USA are luxury ones. There's a Tesla Model S that has three rows, but that's a little out of my price range.

The minivan seems to be following the same story. One day the only three-row options may be SUV and CUV only.

The manufactures are utilizing an emissions loophole with the light truck designation that minivans can't. Therefore minivans are going extinct leaving the CUV/SUV class. Besides minivans aren't cool and offroady.

Fads come and go. Station wagons were once popular. Minivans were once popular. Crossovers are "cool" now but that could change soon than you think.

Personally I don't like CUV's and SUV's. I don't think they are cool.

People make purchasing decisions on emotional factors and later justify those decisions with "reasons" you listed.

That's why we get silly commercials with animated cars dancing without a single word being spoken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYKa9mxPXwA

When their last child reached majority, my parents traded their Rambler station wagon for a Chevelle SS396 convertible.

They were somewhat embarrassed when they inherited a Chrysler Imperial with the sparrow-strainer tail lights. They called it 'the Chrysler'.

Minivans are classified as light trucks. They meet the requirements of 49 CFR 523.5 - Light truck.


(5) Permit expanded use of the automobile for cargo-carrying purposes or other nonpassenger-carrying purposes through:

... vehicles equipped with at least 3 rows of designated seating positions as standard equipment, permit expanded use of the automobile for cargo-carrying purposes or other nonpassenger-carrying purposes through the removal or stowing of foldable or pivoting seats so as to create a flat, leveled cargo surface extending from the forwardmost point of installation of those seats to the rear of the automobile’s interior.

The public has lost it's way.
https://ccnwordpress.blob.core.windo...ith-VW-van.jpg
journal.classiccars.com/2019/11/29/peter-brocks-v8-powered-vw-bus-visits-jay-lenos-garage/

By the (5) quote dustbuster minivans were cars back in the late 70's. The CFR was amended because the manufacturers whined a lot about noncompliance.

Try and buy a V powered anything type 2, if you can find one for sale. Then try to get smog compliance for where you live.

Which ends up being quite pointless, considering so many American vans within a similar class are fitted with either a V6 or a V8, not to mention V8 swaps into some models originally available with either a straight-4 or a V6.

I vividly remember one car commercial: A guy is in the gym, and an announcement is made over the speakers: "There's a tan minivan with its lights on." He looks around, obviously hoping nobody sees him, and then gets up. Presumably to turn his lights out.

The ad was for some SUV or another. Basically saying that minivans were something to be ashamed of driving, but SUVs of course were butch and manly and you should buy one of ours right now, you wimp!

For most people, SUVs are minivans that look butch and are marginally less useful.

Don't get me started on the whole "safety" thing--the average SUV is actually less safe in a collision than the average car. Slightly less so for the occupants of the SUV, substantially so for pedestrians or people in other vehicles. (This information is old, it may be outdated now, but AFAIK SUVs still have less-strict safety standards to meet than cars.)

I'm mostly salty because I like little tiny cars that SUVs can easily run over.... And because my wife insisted we get a 4WD one because it sometimes rains where we live....

-soD

One thing I miss about all the small cars we've had 1991 (Mazda 323, 1972 Super Beetle and 1985 Golf diesel) was the esse of being able to push them.

Sure, they didn't have AWD (although were pretty good cars for snow, ice and mud). But if you did get stuck it was pretty easy to get them unstuck.

And since all were stick shift, if something happened to the starter or the battery was pretty drained they were pretty easy to pop-start.

When I've had the 12V battery start to die on the Avalon there's nothing that can be done to start it without having another vehicle.

The older stuff wasn't so picky about minimum starting voltage, the new stuff OBD2 checks for generally a minimum of 10 volts or it won't do anything. The electric fuel pump usually does the fatal deed.

If I had a plug that could have replaced the shut-of solenoid (and the engine weren't too cold) the ol diesel Golf could have been started without a battery.

The thing is that if the 4,000lb Avalon dies for any reason it's a lot harder to push anywhere than the 2,000lb cars we've owned before. In some of our other cars I wouldn't even start the engine to move them around in the driveway. The Avalon, as a hybrid, should work in EV mode for extremely short distances, but ironically that mode isn't available when the engine is cold.

Pushing around a 6,000lb full sized pickup or SUV is even harder.

Quick story. I have a friend who's a photographer that went to take a family of clients up to the mountains in their full sized AWD SUV Yukon on a well maintained dirt road. But apparently they're not from Colorado and when they saw the dirt road and lost cell service they got scared and decided to head back to town. Mind you I and a lot of other FWD, low-found-clearance car owners drive over that same road as the time with zero problems.

However, i did see a Toyota 4runner flipped over on its top there on one of those same roads a month ago (we were in our Avalon again having no problems with the road). The speed limit is 25mph there for a reason (curves, grades, animals, etc.)

It seems there are quite a few that are either too scared for who knows what reason to take their Pickup or SUV over roads any normal sedan can go, or they get too over confident and wipe out.

I like minivans, even though I don't hate SUVs at all. But anyway, I'd rather get a forward-control 4WD van instead of most SUVs. What bothers me is how the SUV craze has led most automakers into phasing out anything else. Even some Chinese automakers, nowadays most of their export offers is also revolving around SUVs.

My 2013 diesel golf will start by itself rolling down my 1/2 percent driveway. The F250 @7800 lbs empty needs perhaps 5 full crankshaft revolutions for the HPOP to build enough oil pressure for the injectors. I have jump started it at my old hilltop house but it won't human push start and will bend a regular cars bumper when I dump the clutch.

It isn't hard to short or open condition switches manually. Bit tougher to fake a signal switch, but doable.

Even though I don't follow the SUV bandwagon, sometimes they can actually make sense. There were some models which are still quite conveniently-sized enough to be a convenient all-around runabout, yet it would probably not be my first choice for a "car".
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zUt1Q5w7T...o-esquerdo.jpg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-39qeR_j2N...%2BVanessa.jpg

Needs more sport and more utility.

https://ecomodder.com/forum/member-f...9-100-0138.jpg

Nothing a 1906 ( insert your displacement or energy source of choice) and electric cooling, better suspension, wider tires wouldnt fix. Or just replace the whole vehicle.

Did these ever go to macpherson? I cant remember what I had but think it was ball joint.

Never suffered from the weakness of Macpherson struts. :)
The ride is nice because the front and rear subframes are mounted in rubber.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/lyAAA...abq/s-l400.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/lyAAA...abq/s-l400.jpg

I wouldn't go with wider tires. BMW i3 tires should fit on 19" MG-TC wheels.

Had it not been for the "light truck" rules in the United States, I guess this beauty would've never been developed.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rvpkcqhDM...anco%2Bfrt.jpg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jkGAdOWVp...anco%2Btrs.jpg

What is it?

It's been a while since I've seen external door braces.

Looks like the new Toyota Corolla Cross.

Bigger than a C-HR but smaller than a RAV4

That was the first one of this model that I spotted on the street.

I would say it is odd that the rest of the world gets a hybrid version and the USA only gas engines but it really isn't that odd. The gas version will meet our fuel economy standards and gas is cheap enough in the USA that hybrids don't sell that well.

I am surprised this is a burning issue.

I like my Mercedes GLK250 much more than my VW Sportswagen TDI.

It isn't a burning issue outside of a tiny minority of people. I hear it here on ecomodder and on some car forums that believe everyone should either drive a brown manual diesel station wagon or a 2 door manual sports car.

Meanwhile in day to day life people love crossovers.

TBH, with me I think I'm against CUV's mainly because I'm more attracted to things that are different. Sure, +90% of people prefer a crossover or other utilitarian vehicle. But there was one time I had an electric car, a diesel car and an air-cooled car all at the same time. I'm also the guy that stuck with my little candy bar phone while everyone else had already gotten smartphones. Then I got a Windows Phone when I finally got one. But it seems everyone and their dog has a grey CUV and I can't tell the difference if it's a Toyota, Ford or other brand. They all look the same to me.

Another thing is that some try to convince me that I really need to buy a CUV myself because 1 sedans are extremely dangerous, 2 I can't possibly drive in the snow in my sedan and 3 I must hate myself and everyone I try to pack into my "tiny little" sedan. And that makes me want to put up a tough counterargument.

Of course CUV's really aren't all that terrible either. And if that's what people want, that's fine. It is a little sad that other cars types are slowly disappearing or becoming luxury only. I do feel the extra hight is unnecessary, although I do like having space in my vehicle for kids and stuff.

Everybody said my surfer van wouldn't off road either. Didn't stop me from getting lost waay out in the boonies on logger roads.

Everybody says I have to have 4wd in the F250. I prefer chains, sand,and 2wd.

My Dove Blue panel van prompted two comments from others.

Downhill through an abandoned trail in the Oregon Coast Range.
Backing up uphill on wet leaves.

In some export markets, the hybrid will actually be the only available. BTW the hybrid has a smaller fuel tank, supposedly to provide clearance for the battery pack.

Makes sense. A hybrid will get more miles per gallon so needs a smaller tank to go the same difference and that battery has to go somewhere.

Not so much better on highway.


Considering the rear suspension switched from the sedan's multilink IRS to a torsion beam due to clearance issues which would decrease the trunk capacity, presumably it would make sense to use a smaller Lithium battery such as the one fitted to the Prius C and 7-seater versions of the Prius V instead.