Go Back   EcoModder Forum > Off-Topic > The Lounge
Register Now
 Register Now
 


Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-25-2017, 07:06 PM   #1 (permalink)
Not Doug
 
Xist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Show Low, AZ
Posts: 12,230

Chorizo - '00 Honda Civic HX, baby! :D
90 day: 35.35 mpg (US)

Mid-Life Crisis Fighter - '99 Honda Accord LX
90 day: 34.2 mpg (US)

Gramps - '04 Toyota Camry LE
90 day: 35.39 mpg (US)

Don't hit me bro - '05 Toyota Camry LE
90 day: 30.49 mpg (US)
Thanks: 7,254
Thanked 2,229 Times in 1,719 Posts
Diesel in NASA's hydrogen fuel cell plane



Somehow people think that spoilers make cars aerodynamic. I have read many comments on here that downforce is drag.

Well, so is lift. NASA says that if we reduce the lift\drag on a plane at cruise, we drastically reduce the energy needed to propel it. Popular Mechanics explains that the huge wings are only needed for takeoff and landing, but the X-57 uses the six motors on each wing to provide lift on takeoff and landing, larger motors on each wingtip to actually propel the craft, and until battery technology improves, "you don't need hydrogen fuel to power a fuel cell—you can use diesel."

"The energy density of Hydrogen is 120MJ/kg. The energy density of gasoline is 31 MJ/liter × 3.8 liter/gallon = 117 MJ/gallon." Gasoline is 29/30ths as energy dense as diesel, so diesel is closer to hydrogen.

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	gallery-1500485417-sceptor-water-nasa2.jpg
Views:	217
Size:	43.0 KB
ID:	22879  
  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 10-26-2017, 12:39 AM   #2 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Stubby79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 1,747

Firefly EV - '98 Pontiac Firefly EV
90 day: 107.65 mpg (US)

Little Boy Blue - '05 Toyota Echo
90 day: 33.35 mpg (US)

BlueZ - '19 Nissan 370Z Sport
90 day: 17.19 mpg (US)
Thanks: 75
Thanked 577 Times in 426 Posts
Measuring one by weight and the other by volume...sigh.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Stubby79 For This Useful Post:
freebeard (10-28-2017)
Old 10-26-2017, 03:45 AM   #3 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
JockoT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Scotland
Posts: 654

All That Jazz - '06 Honda Jazz i-DSI S
Team Honda
90 day: 48.72 mpg (US)
Thanks: 36
Thanked 137 Times in 101 Posts
A US gallon of gas weighs 2.83 kg so you get 41 MJ/kg (link you posted says 44). Considerably less energy per kg. You could use gasoline (or diesel), you just have to pay a weight penalty.
__________________
People Think They Are Thinking When They Are Merely Rearranging Their Prejudices


  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2017, 07:31 AM   #4 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,762

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,585
Thanked 3,555 Times in 2,218 Posts
I can't imagine doing an "engine out" in that thing. Can you say "Auger it in"?
__________________


  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2017, 11:34 AM   #5 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
JockoT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Scotland
Posts: 654

All That Jazz - '06 Honda Jazz i-DSI S
Team Honda
90 day: 48.72 mpg (US)
Thanks: 36
Thanked 137 Times in 101 Posts
The Electroflight, they are developing in the UK, has a handle on the panel. Pull it and it deploys a parachute for the entire aircraft!
__________________
People Think They Are Thinking When They Are Merely Rearranging Their Prejudices


  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2017, 12:13 PM   #6 (permalink)
Corporate imperialist
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 11,265

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 141.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 273
Thanked 3,568 Times in 2,832 Posts
That makes sense because using hydrogen fuel in any thing other than space vehicle lift is pretty stupid.

What about the weight penalty for the compressed hydrogen container or insulation for liquid hydrogen?
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to oil pan 4 For This Useful Post:
jamesqf (10-26-2017)
Old 10-26-2017, 01:22 PM   #7 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 12,864
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,683 Times in 1,501 Posts
When I first heard of solid-oxide fuel cells, they were being tested on ethanol. But it doesn't really surprise me to find out some tests of fuel cells with Diesel fuel.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2017, 01:49 PM   #8 (permalink)
Corporate imperialist
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 11,265

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 141.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 273
Thanked 3,568 Times in 2,832 Posts
Japan had diesel powered fuel cells when I was over there back in 2003.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2017, 01:57 PM   #9 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 12,864
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,683 Times in 1,501 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Japan had diesel powered fuel cells when I was over there back in 2003.
What else would you expect from Japan? Anyway, I'd be curious to find out why they just didn't try to make it commercially available instead of trying hydrogen. Considering that most of their animal protein intake is fish and other seafood, could even rely on fish liver oil as a feedstock for biodiesel
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2017, 03:13 PM   #10 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,209
Thanks: 225
Thanked 811 Times in 594 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr View Post
When I first heard of solid-oxide fuel cells, they were being tested on ethanol.
I've sometimes thought that fuel cells running on sugar would be a better solution, as it skips the whole conversion to ethanol step.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xist
... if we reduce the lift\drag on a plane at cruise, we drastically reduce the energy needed to propel it.
Which is why most airplanes have flaps &c, and some have swing wings. They increase lift at the price of creating more drag.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com