The Dishonesty of Car Companies
 

Hyundai/Kia - slapped down by EPA for lying about their EPA numbers

Ford - ditto

Volkswagen - has a problem with imploding fuel pumps that damage engines ($7000 repair). Blames customer and voids warranty! Under investigation by US government.

Toyota - had a problem with oil gelling engines ($7000 repair). Blames customer and voids warranty! Eventually was forced by State governments to reinstate the warranty or face massive fine. (And was fined by the Obama administration.)

GM - numerous recalls, changing parts but not changing part numbers, coverups, etc.

But GM also punished whistleblowers. A man named Courtland Kelley was a quality engineer who noticed gasoline leaks in fuel refilling pipes, so GM told him to "shutup" and transferred him to the corporate equivalent of Siberia. "Kelley’s fate has taught other GM employees to be less vocal about their concerns—and specifically influenced a GM safety inspector for the Cobalt named Steven Oakley. Oakley is quoted in the Valukas Report as having been too afraid to insist on safety concerns with the Cobalt after seeing his predecessor 'pushed out of the job for doing just that.'" http://gmauthority.com/blog/2014/06/...-safety-flaws/

IMHO anyone who trusts (or defends) a car corporation is foolish. They have a long & documented history of dishonesty, deception, and screwing their customers (voiding warranties, covering-up mistakes, et cetera). They are no more trustworthy than a used car salesman or ebay seller.

Feel better?

Sorry, but while I don't know the details on most of those, and am hardly a fan of car companies, from what I read it often appears to be a case of the car company taking the blame for customer stupidity. As for instance customers who complain that they don't get the posted mpg figures 'cause they drive like idiots. Or the latest idiocy: people who can't figure out that if you hang several pounds of junk on your key chain, it might have enough leverage to turn the key in the switch.

The sad part of this is that in self-defense, car companies try to design cars for idiots, which makes them a miserable experience for the rest of us.

In some ways its hard to blame the manufacture. I worked for a bank that had technical issues with online banking. Turns out the customers would book mark the page that shows their accounts once they logged in. This caused some issues as under testing the beta testers book marked the main site, then logged in each time.

The Ford/Firestone tire ordeal. Some how tires were underinflated and caused a roll over.

Suzuki Samari, while being reviewed the test drive twisted the steering wheel lock to lock going 55 mph with a dolly mounted to the vehicle and made it tip over.

You need a job that requires you to work with the consumer or public before you can blame others on the chain of command. :thumbup:

Hi
have to post this. when i owned an alfa romeo i went into dealership to have a fault diagnios done on engine came up as no fault despite dash board lit up like a xmas tree. took to a fuel injection specailist who said the dealer used him as they didnt know how to read data logged on ecu. WTF. while there waiting for my car a gentlemen had a total gearbox failure blew up bits spead for miles. car only had 2000 miles on clock and 6 months old. not covered by warrenty so i chripped in quoting fiy for purpose and trading standards law. was phyiscly thrown out of dealership. this eas the top dealer for alfa GB. parting comment was when my friend goes to italy and sets uk specs for all new alfa models in uk he will have a word with top bods at alfa factory italy. yes they got visit from italy. so my romamace with alfa ended :-(.

Not sure on the point of this, please point out the perfect car and/or maker ?

We have this every day, it isn't hard - log the error and redrect them to login. As far as the user and your system is concerned it is all secure and good, behind the scenes you can roll eyes on the morons who do that...

Nobody's perfect, but some companies will admit their mistakes rather than stick the customer. For example MAZDA has been helping owners of their "SkyActive Diesel" engines to provide free repairs. They know there's an engineering flaw, so they are eating the cost themselves. If the customer visits the dealer every 7000 miles for oil change/service, and the engine still turns the oil from liquid-to-gel, which causes it to die after just 30,000 miles....... how it that the customer's fault?!?!?

Yes sometimes it is customer neglect
Othertimes it is ENGINEERS that frakked up.
Engineers are humans too and not flawless. In that engine case, they made it run too hot so it died prematurely. That alone doesn't make the car company bad..... it was their response to tell customers "Warranty void" (and sticking customers with a $7000 bill) even when customers & dealers said the engine was faithfully maintained/oil changed.

What about the story of Boeing planes having lithium batteries catch fire? Customer fault? No. Poor design. Or planes with cargo doors popping off & making the plane crash? Customer fault? No. Poor design. ;) :) :D

Gm has a special policy # for each situation like this. For example #04039 covered injectors on 01-04 duramaxs up to 7yrs / 200k mi

Here's Consumer Reports' take on it:

"The Center for Auto Safety, a consumer advocacy group, has received over 3,000 complaints about sludge problems covering model years 1998 through 2005. A large majority concern the base 2.7-liter V6 used in the Dodge Intrepid before the 2003 model year. A relative handful came after that or concerned some engines used in the Audi A4 and VW Passat, Saab 9-3 and 9-5, and several Toyotas, again mostly before 2003. Engine failure due to sludge is a major problem for car owners, and automakers appear to have been slow to address it, generally linking it to poor maintenance rather than to a problem with the engine. Still, Chrysler has instituted an arbitration program that offers partial or full restitution to owners who can demonstrate that they changed the oil when they were supposed to.

In a related case, Toyota settled a class-action engine-sludge suit in 2007 that covered an estimated 2.5-million Toyota and Lexus vehicles made between 1997 and 2002. In that case, Toyota agreed to repair sludged engines for up to eight years from the time of purchase. While Toyota staunchly maintained that any such "oil-gel" problems are attributable to owners' abuse or poor maintenance habits it did set up a mechanism to reimburse complainants. The language of the settlement appears to include reimbursement to those people who may have already paid to have their sludge damage repaired."

I might be reading that wrong, but it doesn't sound like Toyota told its customers to stick it, and I don't think "extending a warranty to eight years" is the same as "voiding a warranty."

Two planes--and the fleet was subsequently grounded until a fix could be implemented.

All true, except...that would be "plane," singular. And that incident was 25 years ago. And the plane didn't crash.

I love how you cited all your sources and didn't sensationalize anything to bolster your argument!

Regarding the chrysler 2.7, it was a design fault with the water pump. The weep hole drained inside the block, so when the seals wore out on the pump the block filled with coolant. Catastrophic failure within minutes.

When I owned a Toy the local dealer had this thing "free oil changes" free priorities for life. It came with a bunch of stuff including life time engine warranty. Just had to get the car service on their time line which was more frequent than the user or service manual suggested.

Oh, BTW, the visit for the "free" oil change was 49.95 before taxes and fees. THey did a bunch of other stuff, but not charged for oil change. I usually ate a lot of donuts, diet soda and took a rental car for a spin.

One day I brought my car in for service and took a rental. I came to drop off the rental 4 hours later and someone commented it had 300 miles on the ODO. :eek:

Part of the sludge issue is increased emissions regulations, but part of it, for Toyota at least, is simply because people don't change their oil at the proper time.

There's a big difference between "severe" service and "normal" service. A lot of sludge-sufferers were going for the longer 7,500 mi oil change interval, but did mostly short trips and trips in traffic... which are, yes... SEVERE service. I know a guy who got sludge from missing one too many oil changes.

Follow the shorter "severe" service interval and you have no problems.

One could say the stealership was being evil, lying, etc. :eek:

I thought next Toy I purchase from that chain of dealers I would opt out of their program and follow the service or user manual recommendations. :thumbup:

Actually the lawsuit revealed that the engine ran too hot. Design flaw..... which is okay but Toyota should not have voided warranties. They should have said, "Yeah we made a mistake," but roughly a decade passed before they finally admitted it. Piss-poor customer service. Well that's exactly what Toyota did from 1998 through 2006. Many many customers had their engine warranties Voided & they were forced to buy a whole new engine ($7000 cost) with their own money. That's ridiculous since some of the engines were as young as 20,000 miles (and had been serviced routinely by the dealer).

The ONLY reason Toyota changed its mind is because it found itself sued by ~20 different States in the class action lawsuit. The governments got fedup with how Toyota was selling new cars/trucks that died prematurely & then voiding the warranty (and leaving customers with 2-3 year old cars that were broken).

More recently Toyota found itself FINED by the U.S. government for how it failed to honor warranties (or forthrightly answer safety questions from the FTC).

LOL ;) :) :D :thumbup:

The engine DID run too hot... again... because of changes made to meet emissions. But in normal use, it shouldn't have been a problem. It's a combination of the heat, long service intervals and missed intervals that made it an issue.

I know several people who've had varnish and sludge issues with the ZZ engines.

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Of course, they should have honored warranties for those who followed their recommended intervals. There's no argument there.

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Try again.

My girlfriend is a Mazda. I don't see how that's relevant to the discussion at hand, either. :rolleyes: Toyota must be pretty pissed at me, at this point, as I've put them in last place in the last three comparo tests I've written for the magazine. :rolleyes::p

There is no such thing as a "perfect" car. For example, I like Chevy for its engines, but their interior trims are not so good as they used to be until early 2000s.

What is "normal use"? Does one live in the city or in a rural area? That makes a big difference between whether the vehicle is subject to severe use or mild use in daily driving.

They don't tell you this in the owner's manual.

Besides which, no manufacturer wants you to keep your car for any longer than the warranty period. The product is supposed to last for only that long, so that they can then sell you another one, the sooner the better. That's the way the game is played. Even if the car is perfect and has no design flaws, they hope you will become tired of it and throw it away (AKA trade it in) and buy a new one - for one of the same brand, of course.

C'mon, be a sport. Play the game by their rules. It benefits the world economy.

Now ask yourself, before you buy anything again - how does it benefit YOU?

Maybe off-topic, but I'm a bit confused about this 'sludging' thing. It's supposed to be from the engine running at high temperatures, no? But a water-cooled engine can't get much above boiling (unless maybe some of the oil is going through a turbo?), while air-cooled engines used in airplanes car run oil temps at 245 F (Lycoming's recommendation for continuous use) or higher.

It doesn't. I don't buy new cars. :D

The big problem for car manufacturers is they have to build a car to last beyond the warranty. Because people are always going to abuse them, misuse them and ignore maintenance. If they build the cars to last exactly up to the end of the warranty, you'd have a huge percentage of failures before the end of the warranty.

So they have to overbuild them a bit... but they can't overbuild too much, otherwise the car would cost too much.

Still... they've overbuilt enough of them to a high enough degree that they're stuck competing with their own secondhands (the African problem comes to mind... where cheap secondhand Japanese imports hurt sales of economy cars). Those that don't overbuild them enough lose customers in the long run. (ref: Domestic manufacturers)

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Yeah, the manufacturers are screwing you over, but there's a limit to how much they can screw you over and still remain profitable... just as there's a limit to how much they can overdeliver on quality and still remain profitable.

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What I feel bad about is that enviornmental regulations are causing the price of brand new cars to go up and longevity to go down. Regulations on zinc in motor oil combined with ever thinner motor oils and tighter tolerances (with looser, lower friction piston rings) plus more environmentally friendly bearings mean that modern engines might not last anywhere near as long as older motors. Especially considering valve deposit issues with direct injection and fuel system problems that result from the high pressures.

And then you get to dual-mass flywheels, dual-clutch transmissions and other such unnecessary complications.

If I were to buy a car, nowadays, it would be something like the Mirage. Cheap, standard fuel injection system, but engine optimized perfectly for economy.

No turbo. No direct injection. No high compression. No dual mass flywheel or dual-clutch transmission. No active engine mounts. Just four wheels, a motor and a transmission.

Some please explain who pays for the commercials siting longevity of particular models...f150 truck, subura car etc.
kinda contrary to the theme of mean old bad old car companies...
I thought all cars were designed to desinegrate one day after the warrantee expired....

Where on earth did you get the idea that newer engines (or cars, FTM) don't last as long as older ones? Back in the "good ol' days" it wasn't at all unusual to do valve jobs, replace rings, head gaskets, main bearings, seals, and so on before the car hit 100K miles - and adding a quart of oil every couple of thousand miles was normal. And then there was chassis lubrication: anyone else remember grease fittings?

Back in the day - say 50 years ago - a new car was pretty much junk in 5-10 years. Now I expect my 2000 Honda and 1988 Toyota to last for at least another decade with only minor maintenance & repair.

My aunt's brand new 1965 Cadillac wore the factory tires out in 6k miles. With my advice she replaced them with Michelins and they lasted until 70k miles and 13 years. I doubt that many here remember those days when a new Renault came with Michelins and when the tires were worn out the car was worn out.

Average life expectancy of cars has gone from 7 years to over 10 in the last 20 years. I'm seriously considering a 22 year old Nissan Sentra as my only car, which would free up thousands for the completion of the 3 wheeler project. I would not even consider that 20 years ago and many here drive cars with awhole lot more than 176k miles.

As far as honesty or dishonesty I think dishonesty is driven by convenience, when it used to be a matter of principle to the point of personal sacrifice. There are too many underemployed lawyers available for lawsuits against corporations and franchises in the auto industry who think dishonesty and misrepresentation of product will be beneficial.

Not that it does not happen, but it is typically in circumstances where real evidence is just not there or it's a matter of being told something that you know will be denied in any confrontation.

regards
Mech

Nissan Sentra?!?!? Go for it. When I worked at sears tire america I saw a lot of those cars with over 300 k miles on them come in for tires. Next up would be ford with its inline 6 engine in the explorer and trucks.

The B13 is a lovely car. Whichever motor you get in it. Thing about those cars is rust and gear synchros... but if you find one that's been driven gently and cared for... it's a keeper.

About as safe in an accident as a sardine can... but a keeper! :D

It's a "might not"... not "will"

I'd bet on a 2000 Honda lasting up to 300k. Many Japanese cars up to the turn of the century were overengineered to hell and back.

The issue with oil zinc regulations is a recent thing, and direct injection is even newer. Older direct injection systems were a nightmare (and not just the infamous Isuzu Trooper O-rings) and high pressure pumps and injectors are expensive. Not hearing as many issues with newer diesels regarding the fuel systems, but SCV and EGR remain a contentious issue (especially for those driven in traffic) and variable geometry turbos seem to be sensitive to hard use (mind you, our traffic here, with an average speed of about 5-15 km/h, is VERY hard use). Turbo replacement is very common for several models round these parts.

Then there are components which are not designed to be repaired... only replaced... electric power steering motors, dual clutch and continuously variable transmissions... where your only recourse is a reconditioned surplus unit or a full brand new assembly. Can't say much about the "plasma coating" and "diamond coating" on engine bores nowadays... but then, it'll be a very long time before we find out the average lifespan for these modern motors!

I could be... and I hope I am!... proven wrong. Newer fuel systems seem to be getting more reliable, and Ford is, at least, offering replacement clutches for Fiesta dual-clutch transmissions.

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But manufacturers are really pushing the envelope here, and some early adopters for these new, high tech cars are going to get burned. But not because of car manufacturers cheaping out...

The current generation of emissions-control devices seems to have so many downsides that it makes their eventual benefits arguable, considering all the energy expense required to overcome those problems. But you'll see what's worse when SCR arrive there for the big rigs...

I agree with you in that cars can and often do last longer now. The ones that were made in the '80s and 90's were often well designed and usually not overly complicated to work on.

But the things that go wrong nowadays with a car are often no longer simple to fix. Crappy electronics, codes being set that are hard to resolve, and bad sensors come to mind. When the cost of repair exceeds the cost of keeping any vehicle, it often gets sold as a used PITA with problems that are not easily resolved.

Yes, and the cars being made these days are rolling computers... The techs and engineers need to practically have an IT degree to work on them. I got out of the industry when the Prius came out. I'd take my 1992 Paseo to work on any day. I could get the engine out in 30min when I needed to. Swapped the whole thing in 3hrs once!

Define "simple". I'll agree that current technology is often different, but I'll take tracking down a code or sensor problem over e.g. trying to balance an SU carb setup, tune a conventional carb, file and gap distributor points, etc.

Then you have a whole spectrum of problems that just don't happen with modern engines, like tuning. Nor do I know that trying to fix/replace an electric power steering motor is any worse than doing the same with a hydraulic one - and at least you don't have to regularly check & replace the power steering belt. As for variable geometry turbos, CVT transmissions, and the like, I have a simple fix: I just don't buy cars that have these things. Any new technology needs a few iterations to work out the bugs.

On a personal basis, I never imagined that the 06 Kia Sportage would be running so well at 148k miles!!!
I did recently have to replace the 4 o2 sensors and then the MAF sensor but that's it!
And no repairs under the warrantee

My '89 F-250 is over 25 years old, and has over 291,000 miles on it. I had to replace the clutch release bearing @ around 240K. It's on its 3rd injection pump, and it's gone through several rebuilt starters. The body is rusting apart, but my fuel economy is the best I've ever seen.
I expect my '07 Mustang to go well past 200K miles before I need to even consider installing any re-manufactured assemblies. (engine, transmission, drive axle, etc.) @61K miles, brake pads are at about 75%. Had to replace the battery last December - it was 7.5 years old. FE seems to keep getting better over time.
As an auto mechanics teacher friend of mine said in the late 1970's, "They don't make 'em like they used to. Thank God they don't!"

Don't forget the lowly Echo...244k on mine, it's been through hell and it's still going. If I had $1000 to put in it I'd bet it'd roll another 150k at least. Timing chain is a lifetime item on em...it needs a cat again, maybe some new O2 sensors, and at least one coil plus some other routine maintenance. Still on all the original hard parts. Leaks a bit of oil and has a miss under load, runs some uncomfortably high fuel trims, that's about it besides the cosmetics/convenience items. Still returning 40+ and has regular segments over 50 without P+G.

Designing a car these days that doesn't have something fail, with all the gadgets, is very hard. Manufacturers should stand behind their stuff though. Seriously, what car company doesn't have issues and good and poor models. I'm less than thrilled with my 2008 Odyssey van.

Maybe you are discovering why they called it the Odyssey. ;)

It should be able to make it home, even 20 years later.

Ah, but Odysseus' ship was not designed by a modern auto manufacturer. ;)

Due to less weight, as things rust away :-)

Completely agree... carbs are a right pain in the behind when you're trying to tune them... just imagine if someone were to make a EURO V carb, the jungle of vacuum tubes and actuators it would be...

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I like electronic throttles better than cable throttles... they're cheap and easy to replace. But while EPS requires less fiddly fluid changes, belt changes and hose maintenance... you can repair a leaky hydraulic rack... most electric racks are built to be non-service items (ergo... no replacement parts... whole assemblies only).

Well, you win some, you lose some. Don't have enough personal experience to say, but my guess is that, averaged over the whole fleet, the savings on maintenance &c of hydraulic PS would more than make up for the cost of the rare but expensive EPS failure.

When we're talking about car companies not standing behind their products, Mitsubishi always comes to mind. Back in the early-ish 2000s they would send "spies" out to automotive events to record VINs of Evos which were attending - even those in the parking lot not participating. Warrantee work would later be denied. I somewhat understand the concept of denying warrantee work when they can prove that the car was not used in a sanctioned manner...but then, what else is an Evo made for, if not to have the snot flogged out of it? It really sullied my view of Mitsubishi.people as into their cars as Evo owners will talk, and talk negatively when something like this happens.

On the flip side, my parents had a pair of VWs leased new in 2000. The dealership was very gracious in going above and beyond to stand by the vehicles they sold. If I ever had any doubts about getting a VW (and I do), that dealership did VW a huge service by crafting loyalty. I wouldn't have hesitated to take delivery of a VW from that dealer.

I'd also venture to say that as much as EPS is panned for its lack of road feel, we'd have auto journos breaking out the champagne if hydraulic systems were put back in greater use. The average driver couldn't care less though.