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Old 08-28-2014, 12:07 PM   #1 (permalink)
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The Dishonesty of Car Companies

Hyundai/Kia - slapped down by EPA for lying about their EPA numbers

Ford - ditto

Volkswagen - has a problem with imploding fuel pumps that damage engines ($7000 repair). Blames customer and voids warranty! Under investigation by US government.

Toyota - had a problem with oil gelling engines ($7000 repair). Blames customer and voids warranty! Eventually was forced by State governments to reinstate the warranty or face massive fine. (And was fined by the Obama administration.)

GM - numerous recalls, changing parts but not changing part numbers, coverups, etc.

But GM also punished whistleblowers. A man named Courtland Kelley was a quality engineer who noticed gasoline leaks in fuel refilling pipes, so GM told him to "shutup" and transferred him to the corporate equivalent of Siberia. "Kelley’s fate has taught other GM employees to be less vocal about their concerns—and specifically influenced a GM safety inspector for the Cobalt named Steven Oakley. Oakley is quoted in the Valukas Report as having been too afraid to insist on safety concerns with the Cobalt after seeing his predecessor 'pushed out of the job for doing just that.'" http://gmauthority.com/blog/2014/06/...-safety-flaws/

IMHO anyone who trusts (or defends) a car corporation is foolish. They have a long & documented history of dishonesty, deception, and screwing their customers (voiding warranties, covering-up mistakes, et cetera). They are no more trustworthy than a used car salesman or ebay seller.


Last edited by theaveng; 08-28-2014 at 12:17 PM..
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Old 08-28-2014, 12:13 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 08-28-2014, 02:05 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Sorry, but while I don't know the details on most of those, and am hardly a fan of car companies, from what I read it often appears to be a case of the car company taking the blame for customer stupidity. As for instance customers who complain that they don't get the posted mpg figures 'cause they drive like idiots. Or the latest idiocy: people who can't figure out that if you hang several pounds of junk on your key chain, it might have enough leverage to turn the key in the switch.

The sad part of this is that in self-defense, car companies try to design cars for idiots, which makes them a miserable experience for the rest of us.
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Old 08-28-2014, 02:07 PM   #4 (permalink)
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In some ways its hard to blame the manufacture. I worked for a bank that had technical issues with online banking. Turns out the customers would book mark the page that shows their accounts once they logged in. This caused some issues as under testing the beta testers book marked the main site, then logged in each time.

The Ford/Firestone tire ordeal. Some how tires were underinflated and caused a roll over.

Suzuki Samari, while being reviewed the test drive twisted the steering wheel lock to lock going 55 mph with a dolly mounted to the vehicle and made it tip over.

You need a job that requires you to work with the consumer or public before you can blame others on the chain of command.
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Old 08-28-2014, 02:21 PM   #5 (permalink)
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have to post this. when i owned an alfa romeo i went into dealership to have a fault diagnios done on engine came up as no fault despite dash board lit up like a xmas tree. took to a fuel injection specailist who said the dealer used him as they didnt know how to read data logged on ecu. WTF. while there waiting for my car a gentlemen had a total gearbox failure blew up bits spead for miles. car only had 2000 miles on clock and 6 months old. not covered by warrenty so i chripped in quoting fiy for purpose and trading standards law. was phyiscly thrown out of dealership. this eas the top dealer for alfa GB. parting comment was when my friend goes to italy and sets uk specs for all new alfa models in uk he will have a word with top bods at alfa factory italy. yes they got visit from italy. so my romamace with alfa ended :-(.
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Old 08-28-2014, 04:20 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theaveng View Post
...
Not sure on the point of this, please point out the perfect car and/or maker ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb View Post
In some ways its hard to blame the manufacture. I worked for a bank that had technical issues with online banking. Turns out the customers would book mark the page that shows their accounts once they logged in. This caused some issues as under testing the beta testers book marked the main site, then logged in each time.
We have this every day, it isn't hard - log the error and redrect them to login. As far as the user and your system is concerned it is all secure and good, behind the scenes you can roll eyes on the morons who do that...
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Old 08-28-2014, 07:00 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Nobody's perfect, but some companies will admit their mistakes rather than stick the customer. For example MAZDA has been helping owners of their "SkyActive Diesel" engines to provide free repairs. They know there's an engineering flaw, so they are eating the cost themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
Sorry, but while I don't know the details on most of those, and am hardly a fan of car companies, from what I read it often appears to be a case of the car company taking the blame for customer stupidity.
If the customer visits the dealer every 7000 miles for oil change/service, and the engine still turns the oil from liquid-to-gel, which causes it to die after just 30,000 miles....... how it that the customer's fault?!?!?

Yes sometimes it is customer neglect
Othertimes it is ENGINEERS that frakked up.

Engineers are humans too and not flawless. In that engine case, they made it run too hot so it died prematurely. That alone doesn't make the car company bad..... it was their response to tell customers "Warranty void" (and sticking customers with a $7000 bill) even when customers & dealers said the engine was faithfully maintained/oil changed.

What about the story of Boeing planes having lithium batteries catch fire? Customer fault? No. Poor design. Or planes with cargo doors popping off & making the plane crash? Customer fault? No. Poor design.

Last edited by theaveng; 08-28-2014 at 07:07 PM..
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Old 08-28-2014, 07:56 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theaveng View Post
Nobody's perfect, but some companies will admit their mistakes rather than stick the customer. For example MAZDA has been helping owners of their "SkyActive Diesel" engines to provide free repairs. They know there's an engineering flaw, so they are eating the cost themselves
Gm has a special policy # for each situation like this. For example #04039 covered injectors on 01-04 duramaxs up to 7yrs / 200k mi
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Old 08-28-2014, 09:19 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theaveng View Post
Nobody's perfect, but some companies will admit their mistakes rather than stick the customer. For example MAZDA has been helping owners of their "SkyActive Diesel" engines to provide free repairs. They know there's an engineering flaw, so they are eating the cost themselves. If the customer visits the dealer every 7000 miles for oil change/service, and the engine still turns the oil from liquid-to-gel, which causes it to die after just 30,000 miles....... how it that the customer's fault?!?!?

Yes sometimes it is customer neglect
Othertimes it is ENGINEERS that frakked up.

Engineers are humans too and not flawless. In that engine case, they made it run too hot so it died prematurely. That alone doesn't make the car company bad..... it was their response to tell customers "Warranty void" (and sticking customers with a $7000 bill) even when customers & dealers said the engine was faithfully maintained/oil changed.
Here's Consumer Reports' take on it:

"The Center for Auto Safety, a consumer advocacy group, has received over 3,000 complaints about sludge problems covering model years 1998 through 2005. A large majority concern the base 2.7-liter V6 used in the Dodge Intrepid before the 2003 model year. A relative handful came after that or concerned some engines used in the Audi A4 and VW Passat, Saab 9-3 and 9-5, and several Toyotas, again mostly before 2003. Engine failure due to sludge is a major problem for car owners, and automakers appear to have been slow to address it, generally linking it to poor maintenance rather than to a problem with the engine. Still, Chrysler has instituted an arbitration program that offers partial or full restitution to owners who can demonstrate that they changed the oil when they were supposed to.

In a related case, Toyota settled a class-action engine-sludge suit in 2007 that covered an estimated 2.5-million Toyota and Lexus vehicles made between 1997 and 2002. In that case, Toyota agreed to repair sludged engines for up to eight years from the time of purchase. While Toyota staunchly maintained that any such "oil-gel" problems are attributable to owners' abuse or poor maintenance habits it did set up a mechanism to reimburse complainants. The language of the settlement appears to include reimbursement to those people who may have already paid to have their sludge damage repaired."

I might be reading that wrong, but it doesn't sound like Toyota told its customers to stick it, and I don't think "extending a warranty to eight years" is the same as "voiding a warranty."

Quote:
What about the story of Boeing planes having lithium batteries catch fire? Customer fault? No. Poor design.
Two planes--and the fleet was subsequently grounded until a fix could be implemented.

Quote:
Or planes with cargo doors popping off & making the plane crash? Customer fault? No. Poor design.
All true, except...that would be "plane," singular. And that incident was 25 years ago. And the plane didn't crash.

I love how you cited all your sources and didn't sensationalize anything to bolster your argument!
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:36 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vman455 View Post
Here's Consumer Reports' take on it:

"The Center for Auto Safety, a consumer advocacy group, has received over 3,000 complaints about sludge problems covering model years 1998 through 2005. A large majority concern the base 2.7-liter V6 used in the Dodge Intrepid before the 2003 model year. A relative handful came after that or concerned some engines used in the Audi A4 and VW Passat, Saab 9-3 and 9-5, and several Toyotas, again mostly before 2003. Engine failure due to sludge is a major problem for car owners, and automakers appear to have been slow to address it, generally linking it to poor maintenance rather than to a problem with the engine. Still, Chrysler has instituted an arbitration program that offers partial or full restitution to owners who can demonstrate that they changed the oil when they were supposed to.

In a related case, Toyota settled a class-action engine-sludge suit in 2007 that covered an estimated 2.5-million Toyota and Lexus vehicles made between 1997 and 2002. In that case, Toyota agreed to repair sludged engines for up to eight years from the time of purchase. While Toyota staunchly maintained that any such "oil-gel" problems are attributable to owners' abuse or poor maintenance habits it did set up a mechanism to reimburse complainants. The language of the settlement appears to include reimbursement to those people who may have already paid to have their sludge damage repaired."

I might be reading that wrong, but it doesn't sound like Toyota told its customers to stick it, and I don't think "extending a warranty to eight years" is the same as "voiding a warranty."



Two planes--and the fleet was subsequently grounded until a fix could be implemented.



All true, except...that would be "plane," singular. And that incident was 25 years ago. And the plane didn't crash.

I love how you cited all your sources and didn't sensationalize anything to bolster your argument!
Regarding the chrysler 2.7, it was a design fault with the water pump. The weep hole drained inside the block, so when the seals wore out on the pump the block filled with coolant. Catastrophic failure within minutes.

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