Do we need a politics thread...
 

...so everyone interested can go argue there instead of elsewhere / everywhere ?

(and yes, I know I have indulged in the odd discussion or three previously, I am a reformed member now :rolleyes:)

EDIT - and I spelt it wrong too :D

It would be great if it bring some answers to problems. We get so hot about things yet there seems to be no resolution to the issues.

I will say this, though. I love it when Paliament is in session and everyone is going at each other. Like a good football or rugby match. We're too "civilised" over here.

If the US Congress were to let loose like that and had some good play by play commentary, people would get into it.

The problem is that some people* seem to see everything through "political goggles", and so will always inject politics into things that really were intended to be non-political discussions.

*The one(s) to whom "left" and "liberal" have become generalized swearwords, so that anything they dislike gets prefixed with them as adjectives, irrespective of the actual political content - if any :-)

This could be good if there are rules in terms of conduct. Keep the name calling out. Stick to the issues being discussed. Support views with numbers and facts. No talking points. Offer solutions to the issues. If things get out of hand, apologize quick or cut the thread. Have respect, and give respect.

Think before you write.

Not to mention that the words "liberal" and "conservative" have really changed a lot over the years. A "classic liberal" for instance, is really more of a libertarian - quite a big difference. For that reason, I frame things in terms of government reach: role or restraint?

There was a time when the liberals wanted to expand government and spread moral diplomacy to other nations (think President Wilson's 14 points). Today, there is a lot of criticism of our foreign policy coming from the left. Plus, today the left is far more likely to pass social bans and regulations (everything from certain foods to licenses etc.). So we see a shift in "liberalism" to a government with more social involvement and less military involvement.

Someone once said that our political system has become a team sport (sorry, forget who said it). So many people just look for reasons to justify their party's decisions in order to declare victory. Sometimes the issues and consequences are ignored.

My thought on the original posting was to have a kind of lightning conductor thread where those who wish to discuss it all could go, and the rest of us who maybe want to babble about cars, batteries, instruments, FE or even daily moans and smiles could do so.

One thing worth noting is that the Internet does not stop at the Pacific or and Atlantic. Your (as in the US) political system and terminology is meaningless more or less to the rest of us which can lead to other arguments over, well, a difference in the understanding of words really.

Its just a thought I suppose.

I can see what you're talking about, and totally agree.

Arragonis -

(I fixed the spelling)

As I always say to the point of Ad-Nauseum, I think that mutual respect towards each other's POV on politics needs to be paramount for it to work. For instance, when I think of politics, I try to use the root of the word, polite, as a base for my discussion.

If we could keep that as the operative paradigm of the thread, then that would be a big help. I know that takes the "fun" out of it for some people, but then we don't learn anything from each other.

There is a fantastic scene from Chicago Hope where Mandy Patinkin is arguing with a lawyer that has taken over the hospital. The camera is doing a 360 pan around the actors as they go at each other. Finally, the lawyer runs out of arguments and just say something like "jerk". At that point Mandy says "I win" and walks away. I love that because the moment one of the debaters is reduced to name calling, he or she has "lost" the debate.

CarloSW2

You are of course correct, I suppose another issue is the names being used. To some people they are badges and to some maybe insults. Another issue is of course when does something become political. e.g. I disagree with some people on the environment - and no I don't want a debate here. Is that political ? Unfortunately (for me at least) some people believe it is and some people don't - even that is possibly an argument.

For me I just hate (potentially) falling out with people who post smart stuff just because we disagree about something else - and yes, I am an offender too. TBH though I have found myself disagreeing here with someone on one thread and at the same time exchanging useful stuff on another one at the same time as though they are completely seperate conversations - respect wins.

As I tapped earlier and I have tapped this before, my idea is to send these kinds of debates there. But the "rules" about that are difficult to define.

Hey, lets all be nice to each other, even if we don't agree. Does that sound like a plan ? And if two or more members start a ping-pong battle we send them here, like I did on the Annoyances thread. We see how it goes (unofficial policy I hasten to add). Maybe we also label the thread with "ignore if you like".

I leave it to the community to decide. :thumbup:

I tried to check the forum rules, but apparently they can only be accessed while registering. Since I am already a registered user, I dunno how to see them:confused:
But most forums, including this one iirc, do not allow discussions on political, racist, religious, etc. topics.

If this is the case, then Arragonis should be kicked out since he started this thread, nah-nah-nah;)

I totally understand the reason for this thread, and I am all for reducing the amount of political talk that pollutes the forum. BUT I know enough of human nature to know that a political thread, or even subforum, wouldn't help clean up the rest of the forum, but would produce a lot of mud-slinging. I'm willing to bet that any politically-centered thread would have to be closed by the mods before its fifth page.

I love discussing all sorts of stuff with fellow EMers, but there are other forums dedicated to politics and anyone who wants to talk about it should go there. If you feel like getting into something deeper, then just send a PM to whoever you want to argue with, with a link to a forum where you can talk, or send him/her your private e-mail.

^^^ what he said!

My experience, in however many years this forum has been operating, is that rational political debate sans name-calling is as elusive as the fabled unicorn.

It always goes down hill.

I know that lots of people see EM as their water cooler, so it's natural to want to expand the discussion.

But I'd prefer it if we stick to "babble about cars, batteries, instruments, FE..."

I'm here for the hypermiling and ecomodding, but in certain ways there is overlap.

How can we not be tempted to talk about policies that relate to petroleum consumption? These topics are certainly relevant.

Admittedly, there are occasional tangents that are not be relevant, but I don't mind.

As I tapped, its only an idea. There are "usual suspects" who go for this all the time. So if we are agreed its a bad idea then fine.

I reserve the right to tell those who do descend into this to "bog off" which is a reasonably rude (and at the same time not so rude) suggestion here in the UK. I have done this already so I will need to be banned already.

As would PW for joining these discussions. ;)

Politics ruins everything it touches, so PLEASE do not bring it into this excellent site!!!!!

MetroMPG -

Ha ha, you could have a unicorn-transfer countdown such that whenever a political debate arises on a thread, the question becomes, how many posts does it take until the political thread is moved to the Unicorn Corral?

I liken it to a kind of tootsie roll pop thing :

http://images3.makefive.com/images/e...ter-of-a-7.jpg

CarloSW2

When is the last time any government voluntarily restricted or reduced its own power? When will it do so in the future? Will it ever?

No, never in our lifetimes, unless we insist upon removing that power from those who have it. But with human nature being what it is, and given the nature of government and media influence upon us we never will, for we have been led to believe we will somehow come out ahead in voting 'for' a government that will wield more power over those whom we disagree with, whatever our POV may be. So we never can, nor ever do attain more power, we only relinquish it incrementally and continuously. Only the preeminent power of the government itself ever increases and it continues to do so relentlessly, no matter which political party we endorse.

We have been hoodwinked into the perpetual endorsement of an illusion; those who govern us continue to instill and endorse our own self-delusion, increasing their power over us through cajoling us for our votes.

"Sitting on a sofa on a Sunday afternoon
Going to the candidates debate
Laugh about it, shout about it
When you've got to choose
Every way you look at it, you lose." (Paul Simon)

"Can't we all get along?" That's the Rodney King philosophy of social relations.

Guess where Rodney is today? :rolleyes:

It is a very thin line between democracy and mob rule. Majority rule is not immune from tyrannical thought and action. There is power in numbers; but that is not the same as tolerance. And all politics is based upon the former, not the latter.

Political "threads" only turn into name calling and other stuff we really shouldn't say.

And some people will make it political whether it is or not, and accuse you of being "in lock step with a Leftist agenda", even if your actual reasons for being a tree hugger - or a lover of good food and music composed mostly by long-dead white European men - could easily peg you as an elitist somewhere to the right of Ghengis Khan :-)

What is the "other stuff we really shouldn't say"? Who decides what shouldn't be said? Name every society in which that practice has been evoked, demanding that unpopular views of any minority be silenced. What do those cultures, societies or states have in common?

"A thing like that shouldn't be allowed."

That sentiment is the essence of all authoritarianism, providing a fertile environment for intolerance to take root.

How about a Thyme-out corral? :rolleyes:

Here we go again:rolleyes:

Thyme, please stop splitting hairs!!!!

Do you have to go back and comment on every single sentence which may, may not, have been aimed at you? Can't you just let it go? Can't you just share your technical expertise (which I know you have) with us, saving the blahblahblah for elsewhere? You're not the only one who is guilty, but you are the most active at the moment, and I beg you to stop. I'm contemplating whether the amount of help this forum has recieved from you is worth the pollution you are now creating. At some point someone will ban you as a troll.
There! You've provoked an emotional response. Are you happy now?

We can't even continue a good conversation in a thread about a thread about politics. What do you think my vote is?

Ha- wise man once say:

Its already here, take a look around more. I just thought we could have a cage to contain it in. Sort of like a Chernobyl style concrete box :D

No partisan politics there ^

You're illustration is appropriate. It is nearly as dangerous.
I come here to get away from the politics. Sorry to all for bringing them in previously on AGW.
Let's keep this a tech site and leave the rest at the door. We are a multi-national community. Agreement will rarely happen and the mods have been wise to leave it out of the lounge.

We should take the high road and stick to modding vehicles. Leave the politics for the pub !

Poli=many
Tics=blood sucking leaches
What is there to discuss?

regards
Mech

We seem to have a consensus which is No.

And who are you, the consensus Nazi?

One of them yes - or rather I used to be...

...where's the THUMBS DOWN button?

And mean different things on either side of the Atlantic.
Liberals here are right-wing - i.e. more libertarian.
What you'd call liberal in the US, is socialist or social-democrat on this end.
Then again, most of the US (party) Democrats wouldn't fit in with the European left wing - they're too right-wing for that. ;)


The Atlantic is pretty deep.
Let's not ruin the fun.

Talk about the sense or nonsense of trucks can already easily get out of hand. ;)

29 posts to Goodwin's Law.

That's not too good.
I'll have to reduce your rating to AA+:D

After much consideration, I vote "no". I can see now that this is going to get pear shaped.

God no ! I say vote all of them out of office ! Next election I'm checking the box that says NONE OF THE ABOVE !

Seriously, why would anyone want to argue over a bunch of lying professional theifs who screw everyone over ?

...which: thiefs or theifs?

Maybe I should have said thieves. But, politicians really don't deserve the respect of even proper spelling.
These people have affairs all the time, so if they'll screw their own family over they'll sure as heck screw you (a total stranger) over !
None of these clowns could hold a job in the private sector. The worse they do, the more they get re elected !
You give these lowlifes $1 in taxes they spend $1.50. Our country is broke: Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, the postal service, SSI , higher unemployment and both parties did this. China is going to own the US thanks to these elected skum, so why would any decent person argue over such lowlifes ? We get rid of one bad president and get one who's possibly worse. Add a lying media and look at how bad we're doing !

OK, I'm off my soapbox now....................

OK - to be dictatorial about it, although I have no such power in case anyone thinks I am, again - so its a no then ? :D

As I tapped, it was just a thought when my daily moan place started to become overrun...

Mods - I think it can be locked now. :turtle:

I don't think that really counts as invoking Godwin's Law, though, as it's a common cultural reference, e.g. "soup Nazi", "costume Nazi", etc.

Arragonis -

I do thank you for the effort. I understand your desire to exchange ideas. I am guessing you have a bit of the policy-wonk in you. From your posts in other threads I can tell that your POV has been well-vetted. Or maybe I just agree with you, ha ha.

CarloSW2