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Old 12-22-2013, 07:06 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Glad I am not the only one that thinks taking 50 some pounds of corn and turning it into 2 gallons alcohol a horribly inefficient process at least when trying to power a car with it.

The only vehicle that I tested and didn't see enough difference with E0 versus E10 was that Lincoln town car we had for a while and its 4.6L gas hog engine.
The only vehicle I cant do the test on test is the bug. It needs mid grade and I cant find any E0 mid grade gas.
2 gallons of E85 weighs almost 15 pounds though, and it has no water or cellulose.

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Old 12-22-2013, 08:30 AM   #32 (permalink)
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There is someting funny about the effect ethanol has on octane rating.
Ethanol boosts the octane number, so you could take lower grade gasoline, mix it up with ethanol and get a higher grade E10. Right?

Well, maybe not.
According to Wikipedia the octane rating of ethanol is 108.6. Or 89.7 ... What?
First rating is RON. Second is MON. Research Octane Number versus Motor Octane number. Simplified, RON is determined at 600 RPM, MON at 900. Most engines rev higher than that.

Now what does that mean. Most fuels have a higher RON than MON, but the difference is not at large as with ethanol. It may well be that the effect on octane is less than expected, and in some conditions even nonexistent or negative.
If your E10 is cut up with low octane gas no wonder it performs badly.

My experience with ethanol blends is good. My record tank is on German E10, my second and thrird are on hE15. These fuels are officially RON 95, but that is just a legal minimum. The actual RON octane is much higher than that. hE15 is made by taking regular RON 95 and just adding 15% worth of 96% pure ethanol. No doubt the water boosts the octane number even further; there is no ignition point for water vapour, obviously.

You need to know what the properties of any specific blend of E10 is. I suspect there are big differences, ranging from quite bad to quite good.
Commenting on the quality of E10 is like commenting on beer in general. But there are beers I gladly spend a lot on, and some I would not take if they were free. Just sayin

If your local blend of E10 does not work out well it may not be the fault of the 10% ethanol but rather the quality of the gas.
You can find out bij taking the pure stuff and add 10% high grade ethanol to that. If that runs good you know what is to blame.

Chances are you can boost the octane by adding 0.4% of demineralized water to E10. Ethanol is fiercely hygroscopic and will gladly draw it in the mix, unlike pure gasoline. But you need to know that nobody has added some water already, especially whether that was more than 0.4 %.
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Last edited by RedDevil; 12-22-2013 at 09:01 AM..
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Old 12-22-2013, 12:39 PM   #33 (permalink)
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As to ethanol being oxygenated; there is no difference in emissions for a fuel injected vehicle in good tune. Really it only cuts down on CO with carbureted cars, which are like hen's teeth around here. Not too many mechanics know how to get them through emissions tests anymore, fewer still are willing to try.
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Old 12-22-2013, 12:48 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Be careful if you're adding water to ethanol based fuels....too much will cause phase separation. Then you will have water sitting in your tank no longer mixed with the fuel.
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Old 12-22-2013, 03:19 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
2 gallons of E85 weighs almost 15 pounds though, and it has no water or cellulose.
Where did I say it did?

Yes it does take a bushel of corn, around 54 pounds, and some where around 40 pounds of water to make 2 gallons of pure ethanol at the distillery.
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Old 12-22-2013, 05:07 PM   #36 (permalink)
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There sure is water in that E10 crap, they aren't making 200 proof alcohol to add into gasoline. Just pour a quart into a glass jar and let it sit for a week and you will see the cloudiness and separation. Leave it in a carburated motorsickle for more than about 6 weeks and you'll be pulling the carbs to clean the spooge out of the pilot jets. Yes it costs more for pure gas, but it's still cheaper than rebuilding carbs and gives better mpg.
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Old 12-22-2013, 05:27 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I just did a search on E10 quality and found this site.
And it all but starts with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuel-testers.com
... E10 gas (10 % ethanol) that has phase separated from water absorption, will have a substantial drop in octane of 2 to 4 points.
E.G. After water contamination has occurred, a gasoline purchased with 87 octane will drop to about 83 to 84.
That was NOT what I expected. After all, they sell hydrated ethanol blends over here and AFAICT it does not hurt fuel economy; in fact, BTU wise, my economy is better than with regular straight gas. Volume of exhaust gas versus BTU, blah. It runs colder but same volume or slightly better even.
Despite that, and its shaky math and grammar, I will not dismiss it and would like to draw your attention to it.

They sell fuel test kits and provide a wealth of information, backed with facts or not.
Might be interesting for those who want to sing praise or damnation on ethanol blend fuel.
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Old 12-22-2013, 05:44 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Glad I am not the only one that thinks taking 50 some pounds of corn and turning it into 2 gallons alcohol a horribly inefficient process at least when trying to power a car with it.

The only vehicle that I tested and didn't see enough difference with E0 versus E10 was that Lincoln town car we had for a while and its 4.6L gas hog engine.
The only vehicle I cant do the test on test is the bug. It needs mid grade and I cant find any E0 mid grade gas.

Lets not forget all of the diesel fuel that is used by the tractors and trucks transporting this stuff around.
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Old 12-22-2013, 05:54 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller88 View Post
Lets not forget all of the diesel fuel that is used by the tractors and trucks transporting this stuff around.
Show me what fuel gets shipped for free.
I worry about all the ethanol that gets burned by all those tankers that haul gas all around the country. Not.
Tell you this: Ethanol comes from Springfield, not Bahrain.
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Old 12-22-2013, 08:24 PM   #40 (permalink)
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