Electric Supercharger

[pgfpro]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

There is a reasonable amount of information on the web if you Google using advanced search.

"Rotational Inertial Dampening Engine"

Its very loosely based on the WW1 era rotary aircraft engine with significant modifications.

I understand the limitations of any compressed air system, at least to a certain extent. Most of the issues are with the "spring effect" of compressed gasses.

That is why the design would be using a liquid versus a gas.

I appreciate your candor in revealing your formal education limitations.

Frankly based on the considerable amount of information I see you have contributed to this forum, I was surprised top see you had not graduated from MIT with a Doctorate in Engineering.

As one of 4 sons of a Civil Servant the finances for higher education were limited in my case. I did start at Virginia Tech with an intent in graduating with a degree in Nuclear Physics, but I left after 6 months, went home and got a job, and spent 30 years in the auto repair industry.

I read a couple of months ago, think it was Green Car Congress, that Argonne Labs is working on improving IC efficiency with a goal of 60%. My design was originally for an engine that could, by stoke position adjustment, transform itself from an engine to a flywheel for short term storage of energy. No valve train, with compression ratios as high as 50 atmospheres, in a compression ignition configuration. Multi fuel capabilities.

I have been attacked for my belief that in order to fix the real problem with automotive inefficiency you need to fix the system, not the people. My father (still living at 88) hypermiled his 4 engine bomber over Europe to conserve fuel in order to give him more of a chance to get back to his home base.

Hypermiling goes back to WW2 era gas rationing. How far could you get on 2 gallons a week?

I see in my conceptual visions, vehicles that are capable of 100+MPG while carrying 5 passengers in comfort. Hypermilers are the pioneers in that pursuit, but we also have to alter our driving styles to compensate for the basic design deficiencies in current vehicles.

While I would love to see my efforts bear financial returns, the more important point is that the global demand for energy needs to be addressed with the prime objective of better utilization of every energy source.

The term "free energy" drives engineers crazy. Maybe a better definition would be available sources of energy that do not involve the expenditure of capital.

regards
Mech

May I suggest or ask that you do a write up on your experiments in another thread? I find it very interesting and I'm sure others will also. Its what we all need to get the thoughts a flowing.

[dcb]

if you want efficiency, use a turbo. That temperature/pressure drop across the turbine? That is energy recaptured from your exhaust.

[mcmahon.craig]

Originally Posted by dcb

if you want efficiency, use a turbo. That temperature/pressure drop across the turbine? That is energy recaptured from your exhaust.

Anyone here ever measured the EGT drop across the turbine wheel in the turbocharger? I'd always thought they ran mostly on exhaust pressure, rather than heat.

In my own personal experience, all I know is that the turbo is still stupid-hot while running. None of the other (downstream) exhaust components on turbocharged cars ever seemed especially cooler either(ie, still enough to suntan my face).

I DO know that a pound of gasoline contains some 20,000BTU and the engine loses about 9000 of them out the exhaust. Seems like there's room for improvement.

[Christ]

Originally Posted by mcmahon.craig

Anyone here ever measured the EGT drop across the turbine wheel in the turbocharger? I'd always thought they ran mostly on exhaust pressure, rather than heat.

In my own personal experience, all I know is that the turbo is still stupid-hot while running. None of the other (downstream) exhaust components on turbocharged cars ever seemed especially cooler either(ie, still enough to suntan my face).

I DO know that a pound of gasoline contains some 20,000BTU and the engine loses about 9000 of them out the exhaust. Seems like there's room for improvement.

Heat from combustion is what actually creates the pressure, so either could be used to quantify the extraction of energy from the exhaust.

[Allch Chcar]

Christ, You're forgetting wind speed when you use the formula. The given amount of energy you can obtain from a windturbine is based on the amount of force applied. The commonly sold wind turbines generate more like 1500 watts from 8 foot blades at 30mph wind speed.

The advantage to an electric supercharger is the lack of a turbine in the exhaust. A fan in the intake could function as a restriction for cruise which improves fuel economy and yet adds hp under boost.

The BMW exhaust heat device that helped to power accessories only improved FE 5%.

@micondie, the net energy loss is very small. The act of temporarily increasing the hp allowing for a smaller displacement effectively means more energy is saved overall in a DD. While a Naturally aspirated engine does get better energy efficiency from a larger displacement than a turboed smaller engine the cruise fuel economy is worse due to less efficient application. A bigger N/A ICE would have less load than a smaller turbomotor off boost and be less economical.

The Electric Supercharger would NOT generate any additional electricity. The battery system can handle 350 amp discharges but only for 30 seconds pulses. Battery systems use such amperage for the starter and engaging the starter too long can burn up your starter or discharge your battery. A controller would be necessary to limit boost events and keep the battery from being discharged too low and keep the supercharger from overheating. More than likely they size the supercharger for pulse events(30 seconds) which effectively increases the motors output by 10x the continuous rating. If ran for too long the motor or the battery will overheat.

The Honda Insight Gen1 and Honda Civic Hybrid use a 15kw continuous motor. The 12 volt motor in the electric supercharger pulses 5kw but probably has a continuous rating of 420 watts or so, which is much too small for powering anything very far.

Anything else depends on more details. You can't compare a electric supercharger to an electric drive motor merely on a energy basis. An electric supercharger is designed to increase the max output of an ICE and can be much smaller and cheaper than the motor in a hybrid-electric vehicle.

[Christ]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Christ, You're forgetting wind speed when you use the formula. The given amount of energy you can obtain from a windturbine is based on the amount of force applied. The commonly sold wind turbines generate more like 1500 watts from 8 foot blades at 30mph wind speed.

The advantage to an electric supercharger is the lack of a turbine in the exhaust. A fan in the intake could function as a restriction for cruise which improves fuel economy and yet adds hp under boost.

The BMW exhaust heat device that helped to power accessories only improved FE 5%.

@micondie, the net energy loss is very small. The act of temporarily increasing the hp allowing for a smaller displacement effectively means more energy is saved overall in a DD. While a Naturally aspirated engine does get better energy efficiency from a larger displacement than a turboed smaller engine the cruise fuel economy is worse due to less efficient application. A bigger N/A ICE would have less load than a smaller turbomotor off boost and be less economical.

The Electric Supercharger would NOT generate any additional electricity. The battery system can handle 350 amp discharges but only for 30 seconds pulses. Battery systems use such amperage for the starter and engaging the starter too long can burn up your starter or discharge your battery. A controller would be necessary to limit boost events and keep the battery from being discharged too low and keep the supercharger from overheating. More than likely they size the supercharger for pulse events(30 seconds) which effectively increases the motors output by 10x the continuous rating. If ran for too long the motor or the battery will overheat.

The Honda Insight Gen1 and Honda Civic Hybrid use a 15kw continuous motor. The 12 volt motor in the electric supercharger pulses 5kw but probably has a continuous rating of 420 watts or so, which is much too small for powering anything very far.

Anything else depends on more details. You can't compare a electric supercharger to an electric drive motor merely on a energy basis. An electric supercharger is designed to increase the max output of an ICE and can be much smaller and cheaper than the motor in a hybrid-electric vehicle.

Speed input is V3 in the formula. CFM can be directly converted to M/S3, which replaces V3 in the formula, making for the speed input.

I also wasn't inferring that the supercharger originally metioned would generate anything - read the rest of the thread, please.

Those windmills that make 1500W at 30MPH winds are making it because there is more Cubic Feet per Minute of air flowing across the turbine.