EPA has approved E15 for cars newer than 2001

[oil pan 4]

Expect lower fuel economy.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Expect lower fuel economy.

Yep.
Ethanol has 2/3 the energy density per gallon.
Gasohol has 10% Ethanol, expect 3% loss in MPG. E15 should be 5% MAX.

I've read studies the difference is negligible between E10-E40, but I don't have first hand experience with it.

[roosterk0031]

I've played with some blends earlier this year with the Stratus, March thru June. Here's a piece of my data, these tanks were all back to back. Most recent first, so some of the upward gain is also changing driving habits.


35.13 E0 mileage
30.06 E44 mileage
33.57 E24 mileage
32.28 E16 mileage
33.05 E10 mileage
30.73 E21 mileage


3 tanks E85 average for the Impala is 24.5, E10 is somewhere around 29, 15% loss due to E85. (I drove the Impala last weekend same route as my commute with Stratus it got 36.2 mpg via factory gauge).

I'll start blending again if E85 drops back down far enough, $0.30 isn't enough.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by roosterk0031

I've played with some blends earlier this year with the Stratus, March thru June. Here's a piece of my data, these tanks were all back to back. Most recent first, so some of the upward gain is also changing driving habits.


35.13 E0 mileage
30.06 E44 mileage
33.57 E24 mileage
32.28 E16 mileage
33.05 E10 mileage
30.73 E21 mileage


3 tanks E85 average for the Impala is 24.5, E10 is somewhere around 29, 15% loss due to E85. (I drove the Impala last weekend same route as my commute with Stratus it got 36.2 mpg via factory gauge).

I'll start blending again if E85 drops back down far enough, $0.30 isn't enough.

Why don't you put that in the E85 vs E10 Thread?

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

A partial increase of Oil is larger than a doubling of Corn prices. Oil prices > Corn Prices for food.

I appreciate that you include some figures, but they are not an apples/apples comparison. Subsidies aside, I understand that petroleum derived fuel is cheaper than ethanol derived fuel on a BTU to BTU basis.

Since we are talking about energy sources to propel vehicles, it only makes sense to talk in terms of actual cost to produce x amount of energy. From what I've read, it takes a lot of petroleum energy to produce the biofuel. In fact, I have heard that we expend many times more energy (in the form of petroleum) on growing crops than we receive back from the crops themselves.

Corn Ethanol has been proven to reduce Carbon emissions by 20%, source DOE. It also reduce Petrol imports by 2/3 DOE. That is imports not Petrol consumption.

Meaning we import 1/3 of oil required to produce the ethanol?

I spent quite a bit of time looking for the actual US subsidy figures but eventually ended up on AlJazeara before I gave up...

We need transparency in our government. Subsidy information should be readily available online by the public, along with all the other gov't expenditures. It's our money, why can't we have oversight on how it's spent? Wasn't Obama supposed to deliver this?

I don't know if the industry has matured enough to be profitable in our current market, I'm not an insider, but they're still in business and the bulk of the current industry is post 2001.

Ethanol as a fuel source should not have to be subsidized, mandated, and propagandized to make it in the market. If ethanol is truly cheaper per BTU than other fuel sources, then you won't be able to stop consumers from demanding it.

I don't believe ethanol will ever displace a large percentage of petroleum. My money is on batteries and rising fuel prices.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I appreciate that you include some figures, but they are not an apples/apples comparison. Subsidies aside, I understand that petroleum derived fuel is cheaper than ethanol derived fuel on a BTU to BTU basis.

It depends on Oil and Corn prices. At one point it was similar in some places but now Ethanol is almost as expensive per gallon as Gasoline($3 Ethanol rack prices vs $3.35)! I've heard FFVs actually lose 15% with E85 instead of 20-25% and newer FFVs are better so what is a reasonable price varies with the car and driver.


Since we are talking about energy sources to propel vehicles, it only makes sense to talk in terms of actual cost to produce x amount of energy. From what I've read, it takes a lot of petroleum energy to produce the biofuel. In fact, I have heard that we expend many times more energy (in the form of petroleum) on growing crops than we receive back from the crops themselves.

Less than 1/10th of the energy to grown/distill Ethanol is from Petroleum, and it comes from Diesel for farm equipment and fertilizers/chemicals. The bulk of the energy is actually from Coal and Natural Gas. The lifecycle process to make Ethanol takes less Fossil Fuel than it returns. 2.3:1 BTUs not gallons like some people have been suggesting: USDA blog.

Meaning we import 1/3 of oil required to produce the ethanol?

We use 2/3 less Petroleum with E85, it takes some Oil to make it and we mix it with 15% Gasoline (which is cheaper natural Gasoline according to a couple sources). We import 2/3 of our Petroleum so theoretically the Petroleum used for making/blending E85 could be all domestic.

We need transparency in our government. Subsidy information should be readily available online by the public, along with all the other gov't expenditures. It's our money, why can't we have oversight on how it's spent? Wasn't Obama supposed to deliver this?

I agree. But what else is new? We need change not the same old promises of change and then failure to deliver.

Ethanol as a fuel source should not have to be subsidized, mandated, and propagandized to make it in the market. If ethanol is truly cheaper per BTU than other fuel sources, then you won't be able to stop consumers from demanding it.

I'm not a big fan of subsidies, but subsidizing Domestic energy production makes economic sense. We did it for early Petrol and we're using it for renewable energy production. Making a welfare industry does not make sense. If Ethanol couldn't compete WITH subsidies it's more likely to fail before long, the gov't can't keep funding welfares programs. But I believe there is a point when Ethanol could support itself and flourish once it reaches a critical mass.

I don't believe ethanol will ever displace a large percentage of petroleum. My money is on batteries and rising fuel prices.

That's your opinion and that is perfectly fine with me. Mine is on Ethanol, Hybrids, BEVs, and higher Gasoline prices. We already have 10% of our Fuel as Ethanol so it's just a matter of improving it.

[euromodder]

Lots of Scandinavian cars run on E85.
Those vikings are known for being fairly considerate to the environment.
They wouldn't do it if it was bad.
But they've got plenty of land to grow ethanol.

[redpoint5]

I just bought 3.5 US gal of E40 and it cost me $100. That's $28 a gallon!

Has anyone ever thought about distilling E85 and putting that in their bodily gas tank (stomach). Seems like those that are consuming it are getting ripped off.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I just bought 3.5 US gal of E40 and it cost me $100. That's $28 a gallon!

Has anyone ever thought about distilling E85 and putting that in their bodily gas tank (stomach). Seems like those that are consuming it are getting ripped off.

$28 a gallon? That better be a typo or you got ripped off.

Considering that E85 doesn't have the alcohol tax because it is denatured so it's quite a bit cheaper than drinkable alcohol... I think the people who drink it are getting ripped off!

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

$28 a gallon? That better be a typo or you got ripped off.

Considering that E85 doesn't have the alcohol tax because it is denatured so it's quite a bit cheaper than drinkable alcohol... I think the people who drink it are getting ripped off!

Ok, I went way off-topic here. The $28/gallon was the price I paid for vodka for my Halloween party. My point is that I can't imagine drinking ethanol costs 9x more to produce than engine burning ethanol. Now, I realize there are more taxes on drinking alcohol, and the process may be more expensive due to cost of materials and sanitation, etc, but 9x is quite a big difference.

Question- In the US, is a gallon of E85 taxed at the same rate as E10? I mean, if we are getting less MPG, I would also want less TPG (taxes per gallon).