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Old 05-22-2019, 03:50 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I don't know about the old blue bike, but the orange is reportedly made in China (for a German company).

My understanding is that with Chinese manufacturing, you get what you pay for. If you go with the lowest bid, you get Chinese cars like from those pictures. If you put quality over price, you get bikes like the orange one.

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Old 05-22-2019, 05:38 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xist View Post
I don't know about the old blue bike, but the orange is reportedly made in China (for a German company).

My understanding is that with Chinese manufacturing, you get what you pay for. If you go with the lowest bid, you get Chinese cars like from those pictures. If you put quality over price, you get bikes like the orange one.
That is generally true with everything. Of course, I was making a joke.

Nearly everything is made in China, including things of very high quality.

As a tangent thought probably due to my ignorance of manufacturing, I always wonder why when given the option to make something of quality, or to make something as garbage, some choose garbage. Take bicycle components for example. Presumably the materials and part counts for a quality derailleur is similar to a poor derailleur. What is the extra cost to produce a quality derailleur compared to a poor one? Surely it's not 4x the cost given the basic design and materials are extremely similar.
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Old 05-22-2019, 06:25 PM   #13 (permalink)
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How much do you want to pay to design, for materials, quality control, R&D, warranty, and labor? I am sure there are many other factors, but if each of those averages 26% more for high quality versus low, it now costs four times as much.

On the other hand, if you focus on price, you probably need to change your name periodically and have other complications.
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Old 05-23-2019, 03:34 PM   #14 (permalink)
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No, if all the factors that go into a car increase 26% in cost, then the cost to make the car goes up 26%.
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Old 05-23-2019, 04:01 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Good catch Charlie.
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Old 05-23-2019, 10:37 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
That is generally true with everything. Of course, I was making a joke.

Nearly everything is made in China, including things of very high quality.

As a tangent thought probably due to my ignorance of manufacturing, I always wonder why when given the option to make something of quality, or to make something as garbage, some choose garbage. Take bicycle components for example. Presumably the materials and part counts for a quality derailleur is similar to a poor derailleur. What is the extra cost to produce a quality derailleur compared to a poor one? Surely it's not 4x the cost given the basic design and materials are extremely similar.
The designs can vary significantly, though--your typical department store bike has a derailleur that's not very similar to a Dura-Ace or SRAM Red. Also, when you get in to high-end bicycle components, people are willing to pay a lot more for components that are slightly lighter, so the market supports a lot of markup for higher-end components.

A few people on Slowtwitch have bought and built up knock-off carbon frames from Taiwan, where most high-end bike frames are made. Those are a crapshoot mostly because they aren't subject to the quality standards they have to meet to be marketed by the OEMs. So yes, you can get the "same" frame, but oftentimes it isn't finished correctly, there are alignment issues, , who knows how the carbon layup and material differs, etc. even though it came off the same assembly line and looks the same as the name-brand stuff.
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Old 05-24-2019, 12:53 AM   #17 (permalink)
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If there's lots of markup on lightweight components, it begs the question of why there isn't more competition which would tend to drive the price down. I'd be willing to learn how to make high end widgets if the market is supporting a high markup, and price it a bit lower than the competition.
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Old 05-24-2019, 07:31 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Branding. It's the biggest barrier to entry there is.

Acura, Lexus and Infiniti didn't hit our shores in the 70s because no one would have bought high end cars from those crappy Japanese brands back then, and no high end bike shop is going to carry your components because you're not a brand that drives customers to their store.
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Old 05-24-2019, 10:20 AM   #19 (permalink)
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1. Buy an American brand with a decent reputation.
2. Build electric cars under the American brand that are more reliable than the ICE ones were.
3. How does the rest of this go?

Building a more-reliable car than the American brands sounds easy.

Just not for the Chinese.

Are any well-funded Japanese startups reading this?
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Old 05-24-2019, 12:01 PM   #20 (permalink)
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What are the tariffs on imported Chinese vehicles? It's more likely that they can't compete when tariffs are imposed than they simply are incapable of making a quality EV. After all, EVs are simpler to make into a quality product than conventional ICE vehicles.

BTW- I'm not saying US tariffs are necessarily wrong, as long as they are in response to similar Chinese tariffs. Tariffs in principle are bad for everyone, but they are effective bargaining tools if other countries impose tariffs.

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