Good bike for larger riders, Ninja 650?
 

I'd really like the CBR250R or Ninja but they just seem too cramped for my 6'1" 200lb, abused, creaky, old self. To bridge the gap until I can get the Vetter-bike built with proper ergos to suit me, I'm considering the Ninja 650.

My future commute will be about 65 miles one way at 70-80mph in high desert conditions, meaning HOT in summer and COLD in winter, and 40 degree temperature changes from am to pm.

Sendler, you are showing a one time log of 65.5 mpg but what is the set-up and riding cycle on this entry? You mentioned that the 650 was better for 6'+ riders so that adds to my interest in this bike. I would opt for way taller than stock gearing and some minimal weather protection (aero) improvements to assist in comfort in extreme temperatures.

An alternative would be the coming CFMoto 650TR which is a rip of the Ninja650 except in sport-tourer form. Or the Versys to ease the creaky legs.

So, does anyone have a read on the MPG capability of the Ninja 650 bloodline?

I'm 6'1" 190lbs. Put 30,000 miles on my Ninja 250 before it was totaled. The bike was fine ergonomically after i added handlebar risers, but 65 miles one way is pretty far and you'll probably be hurting after doing that every day.

The Ninja 650 is a great option, but how about the Versys? It is pretty much the same bike but is a bit more upright ergonomically and is geared and tuned more for the commuter and tourer.

I'm trying to decide between the Kawi Versys and the Triumph Tiger 800.

I'm curious about a larger (around 500-600cc) fuel efficient streamliner as well. I spoke briefly with Mr. Vetter about this at Vintage Days and he said the only reason you need a bike this large was if you wanted to set Bonneville speed records with your 'liner. He strongly believes all you need is 16 HP.

I asked him because I remember reading a story back in the mid-'80's where a fellow was questioning the need to run a 200/250cc motor and believed a 500-600cc thumper could achieve about the same mileage but still have power in reserve for hills, passing, etc. I even bought a stolen & recovered KLR-600 from an insurance company that I was going to experiment with but at the time was so wrapped up in competition hillclimbing that I never found time to do it and sold the bike. I think it would have made a great starting point since the subframe on that particular bike unbolted making it easy to redo it with a lower seat height and feet-forward riding position.

I for one would be very interested in seeing how a fully streamlined Versys or KLR-650 might do mileage and performance-wise. A fully streamlined Gurney Alligator would be interesting as well. I love the idea of making do with less, i. e. building a super fuel efficient machine that uses a 16 HP motor but in the real world you need the power to make passes on two-lane roads going into a headwind.

Any of you engineer types care to do some math work and determine if a 650 class single or twin is efficient enough to achieve 100 MPG or more with proper streamlining in real-world riding conditions?

I would need to see the BSFC chart for the motor to determine whether or not it could happen. CdA, Rolling resistance, and weight do not care what size motor you have, rather whether or not it can produce the power it needs to get moving or stay moving.

I'd say with good aero and efficient driving (accelerating at peak BSFC, limiting your stops, etc), it should be possible.

The streamliner project will be a 250. ONLY with streamlining, 20-25 hp should be all that is needed for 80mph with some in reserve for reliability, headwinds and hills. But that's the project, another story.

I'm looking for a fuel efficient bike that would be essentially stock and comfortably fit a 6' plus rider that has some decent wind/weather protection. The Kawasaki twin was noted as being fuel efficeint when it came out, especially with taller gearing so that is what I'm trying to verify. Older 650's are cheap too, little more than a Ninja250, making them attractive.

Maybe I should just spend the extra and get the Honda 700 and re-gear taller still. Then again, that takes a chunk money out of the pot for the streamliner project, which is where I really want to go. I can't stay alive without a bike so I need to be riding something, may as well be as efficeint as possible.

Sendler, what is the experience of you and your son with the 650?

Theycallmebryan, the Versys is on the table but I've found little data on how much gearing can help mpg. Much like the more common Ninja 650.

Heck maybe I'll just wring the neck of a 250 cruiser and morph it into a streamliner over time. Dunno.

650 @ 100mpg
 

I'd say it's possible. At least I know about a guy who rode a BMW G650GS single on a fuel economy run, at 103mpg. The bike wasn't streamlined, the rider was :D He brought a pillow and used that to keep tucking during the whole run. With streamlining it should be easier to surpass 100mpg. Without it I haven't ever succeeded, even with P&G (which Craig hates but I love indeed...)

But I have several 90mpg+ tanks (all "real life"), so it shouldn't be too far.

The two most fuel efficient tall rider bikes are the BMW single and the new Honda NC700X. Either one of those can be hypermiled to a life time of 80 mpgUS. Both are around $7000 in the US. The Ninja650 is one of the most widely available used bikes because so many kids buy them thinking they are cheaper versions of the 600cc supersport bikes and then sell them when they can't keep up with the canyon racers. They are more like a cheaper FJR/ Concours. The torquey engine can be hypermiled to good effect which got me 66 mpgUS. If I were going to ride the bike I would go all the way out as long as would fit on the gearing which would allow me maybe low 70mpg's. Normal, sit up riders, maybe low 60's. The stock bars are really tall. Put a larger windscreen on it and have an upholsterer add 2 inches to get rid of the step in the lowish seat and a Ninja650 would fit 6'6 300 pound guys well with plenty of power to launch them as fast as they want to go.
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:eek:

There must be something wrong with the G650GS data. That 90+ mpg average consists of 2 tanks, a sixty-something and a 125mpg one. I suspect that the latter must be some typo or similar. And 2 data points are far from being data :( That's my main problem with fuelly - people often abandon their logs after a few tanks, or even before the first one :mad:

The 'vanilla' F/G650GS is not a tall bike, though. The Dakar/Sertao incarnation is. I, for example, am definitely too short for them. Once I tried a DL650 (it's in between), and that was about the tallest where I could keep my soles on the ground.

BMW 650 are one of the best larger bikes for fuel economy. All the variouse sytems are designed from scratch to be good on fuel. Taking a Ninja 650 and reducing the rpm will work up to a point. as you reduce the rpm you eventualy run into fuel metering problems as well as drivability problems in top gear. You end up having to shift gears more often than when the bike is in or close to as built.
The way I think about engine size and fuel economy is in lbs of air the engine pumps per mile. So that if an engine twice as big turns at half the rpm they consume the same amount of fuel and air. The slower running engine will last longe all else being equil.
I have commuted 84km/day [52 miles/day] on my KLR 650 and it was more than enough for the task. If you later deside you want to stream line it, it will be less hassle than a multicylinder engine. If you can get a fuel injected singe cylinder motorcycle that would be even better for later modification. I think the ninja 650 is fuel injected so it may be better able to deal with changing final drive ratios than a carbed engine, and also better able to be streamlines later on.

40 years of motorcycling
 

I'm 6'1", 290 pounds, and I've been riding for 40 years (so far). I've owned a Harley-Davidson, a BMW airheard twin, a Honda 4 cyclinder, and now a Kymco scooter, a BMW R100RT, and a Honda Helix 250cc scooter (identical to the one that Craig Vetter has streamlined and blogged about on his website). I have never modified any of them for streamlining or fuel efficiency, but I have driven all of them for decades in a fuel efficient manner. Of all of the motorcycles and motorscooters I have owned, the Helix has been by far the MOST comfotable to ride for me. If I was looking to ecomod any two-wheeler, I would choose the Helix purely from the comfort standpoint. Compared to all of the other motorcycles and motorscooters in my life, the Helix is like riding on my favorite living room recliner! It is that comfortable for me, and no other 2-wheeler has ever come close in the comfort department. Plus the fact that Vetter has stated that he is going to release a streamlining kit for this scooter, would make the Helix the no-brainer choice for me personally.

Good discussion on larger bikes. Seems that the smaller displacement bikes are also ergonomically smaller in most cases. Not all riders that want a 250 are smaller in size.

For a high speed, fuel efficient, long distance commuter about 20hp is pretty much the bottom end for a stock bike because of the wind drag. 20hp would be WOT 90% of the time. Remember that this is for a 70-80mph high speed commute. That makes the 250 scooters and cruisers marginal at best.

I've listed the bikes that come to mind that fit the bill (more or less) with an MPG guess and a short descriptor of a salient feature.

The cheaper larger-ergo bikes:
Kawasaki Ninja/Versys/CFMoto-clone 650 family 65-70mpg. EFI, Sport-tour-ish.
Kawasaki Ninja/Vulcan 500 60-65mpg. Cruiser.
Suzuki GS500F 60-65mpg. Old tech in new Sport-tour-ish package.
Suzuki Sv/Vstrom 650 55mpg. Verified at 70 mph.

More expensive bikes:
BMW 650 65-70mpg. Top shelf.
Honda 700 70-75mpg. New efficiency tech.
Kymco 300i.


Anyone care to adjust/add/subtract to this list?

I think the TU250 would struggle to make 75 mph most of the time with a large rider on it.

According to the info I have read the TU 250 is maxed out at 76 MPH, so it will not be a good choice if you need to average 80 MPH. I haven't tried for max speed on mine, expecailly if I tucked to reduce my aero drag. Mine also has 1 more tooth in the front sprocket. My best guess with the TU 250X would be that you would need some aero to get to that speed, without any grades to deal with. With some gearing and aero work you could probably get to 90 MPH on level ground. Drafting on my Kawasaki 125 Eliminator, I have seen 70 MPH, so I would think the TU would do significantly better than that but for sustained 75-80 MPH I doubt the Suzuki would be a good choice. Even the CBR 250R would be fairly hard pressed at 80 MPH sustained for considerable distances expecially with any grades.

regards
Mech

Ok, The TU is off the list. Thanks.

Really, the CBR wouldn't cut it iether? I was even thinking of how to lower the footpegs of the CBR and fabbing an effective windshield.

Guess that removes the Honda Helix/Reflex as they make even less hp, and they can't be that much aerodynamically slicker.

So the next common size up is a 400 like a 400 Burgman or the DRZ or the GS500F. Also the old Ninja 500/Vulcan 500.

Any other suggestions?

My Vulcan 500 seat is the worst motorcycle seat on which I have ever ridden. The bike would definitely do 80 up any grade and otherwise would be a candidate but the seat would have to be replaced. A good fairing would help with aero and possible MPG with the low seat height.
The Ninja would be a good candidate. I have not been on one yet but it is cammed for higher RPM than the Vulcan. The Kawa 500 engine is very reliable with some riders going over 100 k miles on the original engine.

regards
Mech

I fly on the CBR but giant sized riders who refuse to tuck find times where the 23 hp struggles to maintain 80 into headwinds. Then you are compelled to run wide open in 4th and get 50 mpg. A Ninja650 with a custom tall seat is a sure bet for large commuters and can still bring back some decent mpg with longer gears. the NC700X with the touring windscreen can still break 70 mpg with a large rider if you can justify a new bike.

The SV650 and V-Strom 650 are another option.

As far as MPG goes, I think the SV may be ahead of the V-Strom. With moderate highway riding it's pretty easy to get 60+ MPG from the naked model. At 70+ MPH a naked SV650 will deliver around 55 MPG.

Noted, thanks for the Suzuki 650 data.

Anyone have any Burgman 400 numbers for 70+ mph?

You won't be getting 65mpg on the KLR at any speed over 45mph. You can go anywhere though!

70-75mph freeway speeds with stock gearing and a 130/90-17 rear tire give me about 45-48mpg. On a tour of Yellowstone I got 59mpg doing the speed limit of 45mph.

It looks like low 60's might be possible. Write to this guy at Fuelly. He has 20,000 miles on his and is pictured wearing a full adventure style cold weather suit.
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Burgmans are pricey when new but I have seen used ones for $4,000. The Kymco Downtown 300i is another one to look at for $5,600 new.

Ok thanks, KLR and Budget burger off the list.
Added the Kymco 300i.
Trying to get this narrowed down to a few of the best.

Any more ideas?

What about bikes that are easily modifiable to suit larger riders. Like lowering footpegs and larger windscreen for Ninjette and CBR, etc. Are these fixes actually a solution for larger riders?

I meant low 60's mpgUS for the Burgman 400 which is pretty good. I believe the top speed could be in the 90's mph.

Someone on here mentioned the larger Kymco scooters. If purchase price is a consideration, they can be had used in my part of America (central Pennsylvania) at deep discounts to new retail. Cases in point: last fall I bought a Kymco People 150 with 4,000 miles for $600, and this week I bought a Kymco GrandVista 250 with 160 miles for $2,000. So you might want to check the larger Kymco scooters as they seem to depreciate more than their Japanese counterparts.

For a long commute bike, I would definitely go for a driveshaft or at least a belt because maintaining the chain would be a pain.

Do you guys get Honda 700 Deauville in the US ?
One of my colleagues has one and gets 4 liters for 100 kilometers. It comes with ABS too !

Thanks! I'll check into the used large scooter market some more.

Yes the Deauville is here in the US, it's the NT700, based on the old V-twin motor not the new parallel twin efficiency monster. Funny though it is priced nearly as high as the ST1300. Shaft drive IS really nice but as gearing on bikes is consistently too low for maximizing efficiency, re-gearing becomes a problem.

My chain drive bikes get an automatic chain oiler. MUCH less hassle than spraying a can o' lube and you get the benefit of being able to re-gear. It's also a good use for used engine oil.

If you look at my fuel log for my 2007 KLR 650 you will see that I got 62.78 mpg over a distance of 938 miles, this is mostly commutting 84 km/day [52 miles/day] at speeds of 70 mph or more, and some gravel roads at over 60 mph. ocasional short bursts up to 100 mph!:eek:

I currently ride a Ninja 650R and I am 6'2" 230lbs. I find it comfortable to ride but I did convert to clip-ons (prefer being in a tuck). It is a great bike for the price. I typically get 50-55 mpg with no hypermiling.

I got a little better mileage with my old '96 Suzuki Katana 600. It was similar for comfort and power, just a four cylinder instead of a twin

I think Redyaris's VT500 got some impressive numbers with stock gearing

Big scooters I don't really like unless you have some use for the automatic drive because it does costs mpg (10% between my Helix and my GN) and can see you stuck on the side of the road (no jump start possible, belts can happen to snap if out of maintenance schedule)

I didn't read any of the other posts FYI just the original post.

I'm your height but alot heavier - a Ninja 650 would fit you perfectly. To me the 250 feels small too, and a 1000 feels a bit big... the 650 feels just right. There is also a 400 but I couldn't test one, I dont know if the frame is like the smaller or larger or in between but not many places seem to sell them.

MPG is probably around 45-50mpg as reported by the biking tests i've seen. (I took notes while looking for a bike)

I would also look at the Suzuki SV650. It's no longer sold but is a very similar concept - upright standard riding position, sport bike styling (or remove fairings and go for a naked bike style, which you cant do with a ninja that i know of), V-twin torquey type power instead of a peaky racey 4cyl. Mileage will be even better than the Ninja 650 by 5 or more according to average biker reports everywhere i've seen (same magazines and such reported it about 5 higher than the ninja) - my friend never drops below 50mpg and he doesn't drive slow, 55-60 is pretty normal and I think he's gotten 63 at best. Power is the same, a fast bike by any car standard.


I've no clue why the SV650 isn't made any more, it and the Ninja 650 are almost in their own class of sporty standards, honda and yamaha have nothing like it that i've seen nor suzuki anymore.

The Ninja400 is just a sleeved down 650. Same weight. Might as well get the 650. They are not sold in the USA.

The Gladius replaced the naked SV650 a while ago ('08?). Not quite the same - steel frame, odd styling... The SV650 "S" model continued, but I believe it is also gone next year.

I bought this one new in '06, and am very pleased with it. Performance, mileage, comfort, and handling are all very good. Best I've personally seen for MPG is 58, but it can do better.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...g/19d720b2.jpg


Jay

Redyaris, seems the KLR 650 has a wide variability in reported mileage. Yours appears on the high end. What is your set-up configuration. I'd guess a gearing change, narrower bars and a larger windshield would be helpful.

The Ninja 650 is getting lots of votes and I believe it a good bike but I also like the simplicity of the GS500F. Advancing the cams or a custom grind, gearing changes and narrower bars will be an MPG benefit to both. The GS500F would be easier to add forward highway pegs to relieve the tight knee bend though.

I used to get over 60 mpg on the super slab on my 71 Triumph 650 Tiger.I ran it about 70 mph. It ran a single 30 mm Amal carb. Fixed timing and no aero. I get about 50 mpg on my 700 virago Vtwin with a single 34 mm slide throttle carb and shaft drive. Driving about the same speed.

I think one of the keys is to have few cylinders and a single small carb.

I've got a Honda VFR800 Interceptor. I LOVE it. I'm 6'4", 215 lbs. I suggest Heli-bars or GenMar spacers for the handlebars, a nice seat (Corbin or similar).

If the Ninja 650 is the newer twin with integrated exhaust under the engine and side cantilever rear suspension (it's called ER6 around here), then it is reported to be a bike accessible for the smaller folks and very compact and nimble for the taller people.

I don't know what you are planning to use the bike for but I would go for a GS or even better a SV as they are a little larger in size so should give better ergo for taller people.

I'm 6'4.... here's the bike I learned to ride on...

The KLR650 is a much better fit. Still... I put over 12000kms on that little bike in 4 years! Even took it over the rockies!!!

The reports from Honda NC700X owners are very good for a high riding hypermiler. And not too expensive. There are no used ones around though.

Dredging this up again. Back onto Maxi-Scooters. I picked up a 2007 Yamaha Majesty 400 for $2500. It will run as fast as you want. It's as comfortable as sitting on a Lazy Boy. Even with the CVT, I get 55-63 mpg-and I'm not easy on the throttle. I will be changing(lowering) the seat and cutting down the windshield which should give me a slight improvement in mileage. I'll also be riding in a more "efficient" manner, which should yield another improvement. With no other changes, I think I can realistically get close to 70 mpg and still be able to run @ 75mph easily.

KLR experience
 

I just bought a used 2000 KLR650 (for it's Swiss Army Knife utility, my 34 inch inseam, heavy aftermarket support and common engine parts over it's 25yr build span).

I've been commuting 2 days/week, 140mile r/t. My commute is 70% 65-75 mph on the highway, then 20% highway at reduced speeds in traffic (I lane share under 35mph), then 10% across town, lights, neighborhood.

The previous owner had already increased the countershaft sprocket size by 1 tooth over factory, trading the stock 15T for a 16T, lowering cruise rpm 400rpm or so. He also put on Avon 'gripsters' which are more of a street tire than offroad. I managed 2 tanks of 47mpg, 49mpg. I increased the countershaft tooth count more, to a 17T, 70mph is 4500rpm now. I have 2 full tanks so far with new gearing, 53mpg and 55mpg.

If it had fuel injection, I'm sure it would do better, but that would defeat the essence of the 'K.I.S.S.' (keep it simple, stupid) KLR I'm afraid.

Closing up the intake cam's duration might increase low rpm torque and mpg's, and is something I might try. If a guy were so inclined, trading the high front 'air grabber' fender, narrowing the bodywork and handlebars, lowering the bike 5 inches would likely all help... but reduce it's utility.

For a 50 yr old guy like me, I'm not sure a buzzy single cylinder thumper is the best choice as a highway commuter or even long-distance adventure bike, but plenty of guys use them that way. The Versys or Beemer GS on the other hand...

My latest bike is a GS500E 1994 model with just over 10k miles. Second tank was 62.45 MPG. I'm sure it has not run right in a while since one of the air slide springs was broen in half and wound up in itself. Some fuel lines, front fork seals, brake and clutch levers and bar end weights. I have $1500 in it now and it looks very nice, probably garage kept from day one.
I like the center stand expecially for chain adjustments and chain lubrication. I like the visibility of the black, silver, red and white color combination, great for visibility. I like the DOHC but two valves per cylinder, cast alloy wheels, tubless tires, and CDI ignition. Transmission and final drive gearing are great also.

regards
Mech