HHO May Benefit Kill Switch System

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by LittleBlackDuck

Spent a few minutes looking into some of the claims made for HHO and in the first "scientific article" that I found there was this gem of a statement:

The HHO gas comes from the separation of water molecules HeOH. It has high calorific value and 1 kg of HHO is three times as potent as gasoline.

http://www.blulabresearch.org/wp-con....Al-Rousan.pdf
Ten seconds more research revealed the following facts:

• Pure Hydrogen has a calorific value of 13 Mj/Kg
• Petrol has a calorific value of 45.8 Mj/Kg.

This is discounting the space taken up by the oxygen in the HHO gas....

What a load of crapola!

Simon

. . . there is some real science behind the ability of HHO to affect combustion even with an exceedingly small volume percent added to the fuel/air mix. No hocus pocus or smoke and mirrors. Just good science ( albeit advanced for most people ) that does show a pathway to gain a few percent at stoichiometric mixes and much more at lean burn.

[LittleBlackDuck]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

. . . there is some real science behind the ability of HHO to affect combustion even with an exceedingly small volume percent added to the fuel/air mix. No hocus pocus or smoke and mirrors. Just good science ( albeit advanced for most people ) that does show a pathway to gain a few percent at stoichiometric mixes and much more at lean burn.

Not disputing the science except that there is a paucity of really robust testing. The crapola comment was directed at the comment in the paper that stated HHO is three times more energy dense than petrol.

Simon

[LittleBlackDuck]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

The carburetor , by their report, was adjusted to stoichiometric at each test point. They made an addition of HHO of up to 0.45% by volume.
<snip>
I have tested it on a 1990 Daihatsu Charade with the CB90 engine which has a relatively "lazy" combustion chamber comprised of a hemispherical head and straight shot intake passages. Running at 22:1 AFR resulted in missed ignition cycles and a COV ( co-efficient of variability ) well above the 5% rule of thumb for a good running engine. The engine could barely run at 24:1 AFR. It must be pointed out that engines designed to run in lean burn, such as the Honda engines, can run up to this point with reasonable COV, but the CB90 could not. Now, the addition of some HHO via an alternator powered electrolysis cell results in a smooth running engine up to 28:1 AFR. That was the limit of the Innovate Wideband O2 sensor we were using. You ask if I did ABA testing? Sure, turn off the HHO generator at 28:1 AFR and the engine cannot run.

Not disputing the findings but the interpretation. Doesn't the introduction of HHO in place of air richen up the mixture and potentially explain the improved running? What was the change in Lambda when the HHO was introduced? What was the power produced or was this just at idle? As far as I know lean burn needs higher BMEP and cylinder temperatures to work effectively.

Just seeking to unpack the hype around this.

Simon

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by LittleBlackDuck

Not disputing the science except that there is a paucity of really robust testing. The crapola comment was directed at the comment in the paper that stated HHO is three times more energy dense than petrol.

Simon

The Madyira paper is quite robust compared to the testing that goes on in this forum.

Numerous papers that are not accessible via the internet or because they are buried in upper echelon publications does not mean there has not been interest and research in the subject.

I will save you the trouble and simply state that the papers and studies do not back up the "double your mileage" claims. They do support the results Madyira and Harding revealed. Single digit gains in efficiency is all we can expect from an HHO generator running off of crankshaft power and at a gasoline AFR of 14.7:1.

Most of the studies are interested in basic science questions such as identifying the most important combustion pathways, how seeding interactions affect the pathways and how pathways to emission producing dead ends may be avoided. Reading all of the material available is a tall order, but it does point to the interest in combustion science.

And, the interest in HHO should not be clouded by the snake oil salesmen. There is enough science behind HHO to support experimentation if a person will realize that the work can result in small gains that will not be near as exciting as the scammer promises.

[LittleBlackDuck]

RUstyLugNut, tanks for the reply. I will try to get some more time to investigate HHO using access to university libraries that I can get. The statement about single digit gains rings more true than most of the claims that abound.

The comment on seeding interactions sounds the most plausible to me, and is in line with other synergistic combustion effects that can be hard to quantify.

Simon

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by LittleBlackDuck

Not disputing the findings but the interpretation. Doesn't the introduction of HHO in place of air richen up the mixture and potentially explain the improved running? What was the change in Lambda when the HHO was introduced? What was the power produced or was this just at idle? As far as I know lean burn needs higher BMEP and cylinder temperatures to work effectively.

Just seeking to unpack the hype around this.

Simon

The Madyira paper does explain how the addition of 0.45% by volume of HHO at high power settings does result in an increase of CO due to the slight enriching effect of HHO. However, at the AFR ratios we ran the CB90 engine at ( 28:1 AFR ) there was no detectable change in the fuel mix ( one significant figure past the decimal ).

And you are correct, lean burn needs higher mixture energy to work well - cylinder pressure, cylinder heat and mixture energy ( kinetic energy in the form of swirl and tumble ). The Honda lean burn engines are optimized for this with high swirl heads, good compression and the use of large amounts of EGR. The Daihatsu engine was not a good candidate with it's low 8:1 compression ratio and relatively large overlap cam with much smaller volumes of EGR used. Thus, it's reluctance to run lean. However, with HHO as a crutch, the engine is easily able to run in lean burn. The engine was tested on a roller dynamometer under the front driven wheels of the Daihatsu. Power output was at 10 and 15 horsepower.

A forum member has built an engine that takes all the concepts of a good lean burn environment. Using a turbo that provides boost even at low throttle settings allows the buildup of heat, pressure and turbulence. He has a modern engine controller that allows him to control fuel and ignition with alacrity. He has run his car on the road at up to 30:1 AFR and somewhat beyond. Look for a build thread by pfgpro. It is highly revealing and entertaining.

[LittleBlackDuck]

I have read pgfpro's build thread and found it interesting, as was his use of recycled paint solvent as fuel.

Simon

[pgfpro]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

The Madyira paper does explain how the addition of 0.45% by volume of HHO at high power settings does result in an increase of CO due to the slight enriching effect of HHO. However, at the AFR ratios we ran the CB90 engine at ( 28:1 AFR ) there was no detectable change in the fuel mix ( one significant figure past the decimal ).

And you are correct, lean burn needs higher mixture energy to work well - cylinder pressure, cylinder heat and mixture energy ( kinetic energy in the form of swirl and tumble ). The Honda lean burn engines are optimized for this with high swirl heads, good compression and the use of large amounts of EGR. The Daihatsu engine was not a good candidate with it's low 8:1 compression ratio and relatively large overlap cam with much smaller volumes of EGR used. Thus, it's reluctance to run lean. However, with HHO as a crutch, the engine is easily able to run in lean burn. The engine was tested on a roller dynamometer under the front driven wheels of the Daihatsu. Power output was at 10 and 15 horsepower.

A forum member has built an engine that takes all the concepts of a good lean burn environment. Using a turbo that provides boost even at low throttle settings allows the buildup of heat, pressure and turbulence. He has a modern engine controller that allows him to control fuel and ignition with alacrity. He has run his car on the road at up to 30:1 AFR and somewhat beyond. Look for a build thread by pfgpro. It is highly revealing and entertaining.

I would love to do some HHO testing on my Talon. I just need to get the HHO equipment to do so.

[gumby79]

I'm also interested in the HHO as a welding/cutting gas . This would be run from the house/ grid. Or an converter as a mobile fab shop for off-road trail repairs. Should have a TIG quality weld of any material including ceramics to metal., and dissimilar metals like Fe +Al

----
Has the burden of proof/ plausibility of HHO been met well enough to talk parts ?

Like cells my studies lead me to believe a dry-cell in more is efficient than wet . I've seen one with a medium pressure( 60psi he tested to 90psi without auto-ignition ) dry-cell that seemed to do better than ones run at atmosphere .

[LittleBlackDuck]

Originally Posted by gumby79

I'm also interested in the HHO as a welding/cutting gas . This would be run from the house/ grid. Or an converter as a mobile fab shop for off-road trail repairs. Should have a TIG quality weld of any material including ceramics to metal., and dissimilar metals like Fe +Al

----
Has the burden of proof/ plausibility of HHO been met well enough to talk parts ?

Like cells my studies lead me to believe a dry-cell in more is efficient than wet . I've seen one with a medium pressure( 60psi he tested to 90psi without auto-ignition ) dry-cell that seemed to do better than ones run at atmosphere .

HHO as a source of welding gas is quite plausible and also convenient. I am still digesting the report and will post more comments soon.

Simon