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Old 09-14-2009, 11:48 PM   #11 (permalink)
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From what I've read, the hydraulic seals is the show stopper - that's apparently why the only hydraulic hybrids are the UPS trucks.

Not saying gas/electric hybrids are the ultimate, but they are in mass production because they are reliable, even if they are relatively mediocre.

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Old 09-15-2009, 08:06 AM   #12 (permalink)
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What seals are you talking about Delta Flyer?
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:58 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I enjoy learning about fancy new devices and gadgets, but there is something very appealing about using established technology, which can be retrofitted to my favourite old banger, the local forklift specialist can work on, and can be just as efficient as contemporary electronic solutions.

Can we talk one of our gung-ho grease-monkey ecomodders into testing it out? When SVOboy's IRX is finished he will want a new challenge...
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:33 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Ford was developing a hydrualic launch assist system for their trucks, think they bailed on it though. It offered significant increases in FE during stop and go traffic.
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Old 09-15-2009, 10:06 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta Flyer View Post
From what I've read, the hydraulic seals is the show stopper - that's apparently why the only hydraulic hybrids are the UPS trucks.

Not saying gas/electric hybrids are the ultimate, but they are in mass production because they are reliable, even if they are relatively mediocre.
Sorry I don't have supporting links.

All I can say is all the hybrid passenger cars are gas/electric or diesel/electric - there must be a reason for that.
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Old 09-15-2009, 02:55 PM   #16 (permalink)
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potential deal breaker for hydraulic.

I haven't done the math, hmmm, not even sure I could do the math any more.

Anyway, I suspect that the energy density of basically a spring (compressed nitrogen) can't hold nearly as much energy as the same weight battery. So, effectively, it may only provide limited energy recovery and limited "start up" power, for the weight and expense. Under the right circumstances, start/stop/start/stop/start/stop, it might provide about the same benefit as the electric hybrid.

I wonder...


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Old 09-15-2009, 05:09 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I just registered so I could add some information to this thread.

Hydraulic hybrids are a real alternative to other hybrid configurations.

Many different groups are working on HH designs for cars as we view this thread

http://www.innas.com/Assets/files/Hydrid%20brochure.pdf

This is one of the best efforts to date but there are others that are significant. The HH option provides two separate efficiency increases that will make HH vehicles a potential solution to future transportation.

1. High capacity regeneration efficiency.

Currently wheel to wheel is 78%. Compare that to electric regeneration at less than 50%. Future designs have the promise to equal the power train efficiency of a conventional power train. One of those design is my own. It should see the patent process completed in a few months.

2. Constant vehicle speed Pulse&Glide.

With high capacity storage via accumulators or flywheels, you can use the P&G tactic without variable speed. An Infinitely Variable drive with short term high capacity storage allows this to be possible while vehicle speed remains constant. This will not be possible with electric propulsion, due to the various steps and the cumulative effects of the separate losses through each step.

Most here recognize the effectiveness of the P&G strategy. Think of the potential of P&G without the necessity of using the mass of the vehicle as your short term storage.

Weight:

Charles Gray head of the EPA program said. " I can hold a 500 HP hydraulic motor in my hand."

Accumulator storage capacities are in the neighborhood of 50 KW per kilogram of weight. Much higher capacities are possible with exotic materials.

Hydraulic launch assist can be added to existing FWD vehicles for a weight penalty that is neutral when you consider the reduction in fuel tank capacity and removal of other components that would no longer be necessary. In fact if you build a dedicated HH vehicle you could eliminate close to 24% of the existing parts in the most basic car and build a HH car for less than the cheapest car you can buy today.

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Old 09-15-2009, 05:12 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Solarguy well they did use compressed air and compressed springs at the turn of the century. We are kind of going back to that where there are hundreds of car companies. Better for the enthusiast. But in this case they are compressing fluids. This kit the Colorado company Hydraulic Hybrid Systems is coming out with starts at $12,900. It is for gas/CNG Chevy 2500. A Ford F250 is the next one.

According to George Constantinesco hydraulics and electricity operate in similar ways a unified theory of quantum mechanics. What he discovered was Sonics or compressing liquids. That is not what the above kit does.

He found hydraulics and electricity behaved in the same way and power could be transfered using 3 phase systems.

Last edited by jason.thompson; 09-15-2009 at 05:18 PM..
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:14 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Well they did use compressed air and compressed springs at the turn of the century. We are kind of going back to that where there are hundreds of car companies. Better for the enthusiast. But in this case they are compressing fluids. This kit the Colorado company Hydraulic Hybrid Systems is coming out with starts at $12,900. It is for gas/CNG Chevy 2500. A Ford F250 is the next one.

According to George Constantinesco hydraulics and electricity operate in similar ways a unified theory of quantum mechanics. What he discovered was Sonics or compressing liquids. That is not what the above kit does.

He found hydraulics and electricity behaved in the same way and power could be transfered using 3 phase systems.
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Old 09-15-2009, 07:32 PM   #20 (permalink)
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First thing. You should not consider hydraulic versus electric hybrid. When battery technology gets to the point where you have the range and long life necessary then battery electric may end up as the primary means of transportation.

It's not an either or situation, but the best method or combination of methods that get us to energy independence. To ignore any means or method that would get us there is short sighted.

The issue then could be a combination of battery electric and hydraulic power train systems.

For a regeneration and power reapplication cycle hydraulic wins. Its important to consider the additional fact that a pure hydraulic power train, eliminates a lot of components in the power train itself.

The small hydraulic motors at each wheel would weigh the same as the brake components they would replace, leaving only the necessity for an emergency brake in the event of a total (quadruple redundant) system failure.

Consider the KERS systems used in the Formula 1 cars. It uses a torovec IVT and a small flywheel spinning at 60k RPM to store 60 KW of power for a few seconds. A race was won recently using that system, so that shows that systems can be made light enough to provide an advantage in the most lightweight and competitive racing situations.

Its easy to build a system for heavy trucks, but if you check the prior link you will see a direct comparison of two identical vehicles, one with a conventional power train, the other with a series hydraulic hybrid power train that replaces the conventional system. The fuel economy improvement is a 50% reduction in fuel consumption.

Parker Hannifin is trying to encourage development of ultra lightweight hydraulic hybrid power trains by sponsoring the "Chainless Challenge". This is an event where university students design bicycles with hydraulic power trains. If you can build a bicycle with a hydraulic power train, you can certainly build a car. In fact very light cars are in the near future with hydraulic power trains, and the performance will be exhilarating as well as very efficient.

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