Morelli Shape

[Rokeby]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtgklHQ52WE

[NeilBlanchard]

There are many sources for electricity being lower carbon output, even with today's mix of coal generation -- because remember, there is a lot more carbon in gasoline that what is physically in it.

According to Nissan, each gallon of gasoline "contains" 7.5kWh of electricity, which could be used to drive 30-60 miles if used directly in an EV. So, the gallon of gas also contains the carbon that is in that electricity -- which means that by definition, the gasoline has far more carbon in it. And there is a fair bit of natural gas used at various stages to make gasoline.

Jim, I was in many physics courses in college, and I have a very good handle on the basics.

Mike -- I mentioned biodiesel as a renewable fuel. But, so far, solar and wind, geothermal, wave, tidal, and methane from digesters and/or plant waste is far more scalable right now.

[Patrick]

Did we ever get a good source on that 7.5Kwh/gal of gas besides Nissan's poster on a Leaf?

[miket]

Solar may be scalable , the other are not scalable. Its only wishfull thinking. Realistically we have to go to nuclear for sustainable electricity.4 gen reactors create temperatures high enough to sythesize fuel so when they come on line we'll have options.

[RobertSmalls]

Originally Posted by Patrick

Suppose I instead buy a Lotus Elise for $45K and use the leftover $75K to buy solar panels and sell the power to my utility. Then what?

Okay, I'll take that one.

Given: $5000/Wp installed cost, 800-1800KWh/yr/Wp, and .6kg CO2/KWh,

$75000 will generate 20000KWh in Buffalo and 45000KWh in Arizona. That'll offset 12t/yr (metric tons) of CO2 in Buffalo, or 27t/yr in Arizona.

A Lotus Elise is rated for 23mpg combined. Supposing you manage not to exceed the EPA rating, for 12000mi/yr. Including the 17% upstream CO2 generation per DoE data, you generate 8877g CO2/gal, or 4.6t/yr.

Get the Lotus instead of the Tesla, and fill your yard with solar panels. Bonus: The solar panels will last longer than the Tesla, anyway.

[miket]

Do those buffalo figures account for the panels being under snow? Is a lotus driver really going to rake off a buffalo worth of snow from all the solar panels in the winter?

[RobertSmalls]

Originally Posted by miket

Do those buffalo figures account for the panels being under snow? Is a lotus driver really going to rake off a buffalo worth of snow from all the solar panels in the winter?

Doesn't matter. It's not very sunny in the winter, and the days are shorter, so you do most of your generation in the summer anyway. Here's a DIY system that produced 645KWh/Wp in Michigan, but look at what portion of that was in months where it might snow:
my diy pv set-up - Page 13 - EcoRenovator

I didn't actually find a KWh/Wp figure for Buffalo, so I used one for Northern Germany. Similar latitude and climate. Since similar results were found in Michigan, I'd say I wasn't far off.

Remember this isn't a Lotus driver who puts more oil in his hair than I do in my crankcase. It's a would-be Tesla driver who did the math and came to the conclusion a PV array + "Tesla 2g" would be a more environmental choice. So yes, he will rake off his panels if it's not overcast. Also, snow tends to slide off of angled panels anyway.

[NeilBlanchard]

Germany has about as much sun as Washington state -- that is to say the least sunny place in the lower 49 states. It is also not particularly windy in Germany, either.

If Germany can get ~12-15% of their electricity from renewables (they also use methane biogas from digested corn stalks and leaves), and get that up to 20-40% in a couple of decades, then the USA certainly can do at least this much; in a few decades.

[miket]

Germany is big on coal because they wont do nuclear like france. Given that its not always sunny its going to be hard for them to get above 20%. Only countries with ample hydro or geothermal can just turn on the tap. Maybe solar thermal will change this.

[RobertSmalls]

@Neil: I found some maps with insolation data. Lower Saxony is as dim as Seattle, Buffalo, or Lansing, but Bavaria only as dim as Virginia or the Texas coast. Still, if Germany were smart, they'd put their solar panels in Spain and run a HVDC intertie.

But if your point was that the US has enough wind, solar, and hydro resources to cover most of our energy needs, that's never been in dispute. What I do doubt is that we have the will to do it.

We're still putting up new coal plants, which will be with us for fourty years at least. In fact, the percentage of new generation capacity that is renewable DECLINED in 2009. This is a cause without a rebel.