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Old 12-05-2018, 12:49 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Thanks for keeping us updated on your truck. I own a Jeep XJ and I've done some mods on it to increase fuel efficiency, so I'm pretty interested in what people do to their trucks and SUVs to achieve results.

In my experience, my "old" Jeep (1997) has held up very well. I haven't ever had a major problem in the 7 years I've had it, though there were some big maintenance items like replacing the entire cooling system and replacing the rear main seal. It is my daily driver and it can go off roading. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges here, but if I were in your shoes, I would figure out a way to do the job myself.

...or buy a Jeep Cherokee


Last edited by Taylor95; 12-05-2018 at 12:56 AM..
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Old 12-05-2018, 06:05 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Hello Taylor95,

Glad you appreciate the updates.

Well, I've done no fuel efficiency mods yet other than parking it and driving the White Car... Instant 90+% increase in mpg. I suppose you could count putting synthetic fluid in the transfercase?

It isn't a question of ability, really - I am capable of doing the work necessary. It's a question of available time and garage space.

I was actually looking at an old XJ when I found Green Truck. The XJ had rust-through on the floors almost all the way around, though, and then I saw Green Truck. Decided to look it up on the dealer website while sitting in the parking lot - and it was listed as a stick shift, so I went to look at it. Ended up buying it within a month or two.

One disadvantage the XJ has is no rear headrests, which isn't good for my kids' necks. Not something that can be fixed with a quick weekend bolt-in, unfortunately. Up here in the land of salted roads, in the price range I was looking around in, there were no XJ's or TJ's that were not excessively rusty.

Well, that's the biggest problem for finding a vehicle - my biggest problem is scrounging time and space to work on one! I can't just go buy an XJ right now anyway - all my "Toy Cash" is tied up in Green Truck and Black Truck.

Need to clear out the garage, get the Green Truck back in, and set to work finishing up the "goodies transplant". Since the 32x11.5R15 mud tires (nearly 100% tread, on new 15x8" black steel rims, on Black Truck) are a very poor choice for winter driving, I'll probably see if I can flog them and pick up some Wrangler Rubicon takeoffs - 255/75R17 would be a good size to go with the 4.11 gears from Black Truck. Would need either captive-lug spacers or rims with the right backspacing.

I can just leave the existing 235/75R15's on, but RPM's will be up a fair bit due to the jump from 3.55 to 4.11 gearing. Factory tow package gearing, though, so not unthinkable.

Dang lucky my wife isn't really mad about not having a garage space.
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Old 12-05-2018, 10:19 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Ha, you are real lucky. My wife probably would not have that.

Yeah rust can be a pretty big issue with xjs. I'm lucky that I live in an area that isn't really that bad when it comes to rust. Plus if you are carting kids around, I guess that the no head rest thing would be an issue... something I don't need to worry about.

If you're going down in gear size and getting different tires anyway, have you considered going bigger? 33 x 9.50 seems reasonable with 4.11 gears. I think that fuel economy would fall if your tires are too short for your gear ratio. Of course that could also mean more cutting and other work involved. But either way going with a skinnier tire should net you some mpgs.

I wish you luck though... I can totally relate with the no time or space to work on my car problem.

Edit: Nevermind, I guess the skinniest 33s come is 10.5"

Last edited by Taylor95; 12-06-2018 at 01:39 AM..
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:18 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Hello again Taylor95,

My wife has been really supportive.

Hmm, the gear swap might not actually be that bad with my current tires - peak torque for the 4.0 OHV is at 2750RPM vs 3000RPM on the SOHC. Swapping in 4.10 gears with the 235/75R15's would take 55mph/5th gear rpms from ~1848 to ~2135 - still below torque peak, so probably on the same BSFC "island" (don't have a map for this engine). What has me more worried is the effect of an LSD in winter with RWD on road manners. Hello fishtailing!

I don't *have* to get new tires - I have two sets of good tires, one 235/75R15 and one 32x11.5R15. I just don't want to run the 32x11.5R15 mud tires in winter due to the bad effects of wide tire and lack of siping on winter roads. 33x10.5 are not cheap, so I'd need to do very well selling the 32x11.5R15's to get those. 32x11.5R15 fit with only a bit of "persuading" of some plastic fender liner bits. Narrower tires should be similar/better - people have reported 33x10.5 with the same mods that fit 32x11.5, so long as you get the backspacing correct to fit the wheelwell. The 255/75R17 Jeep Rubicon take-offs are inexpensive - and often come with wheels that just need spacers to fit. 265/70R18 are an inexpensive size, just need 18" rims that fit. These larger rim sizes are not ideal for off-road, but most of this truck's miles will be on-road commuting. I can save my pennies and get some bias-ply P78x16C Buckshot Mudders or 33x9.5 Super Swampers to put on a set of used cheap steel Explorer rims for off-road use only. If I swap in the 4.10 gears.

Either way, sometime in late February or early March one of the two trucks *must* be out of the garage, unless I buy a shed to stuff all the not-truck stuff into so I can make room. GS Cookie Season - need a place to store all the cookies for the Troop... No work in the garage during that time-frame, either. Given that it took me 4 months to replace a clutch, I can't put Green Truck into the garage for a big job at all, as it'll never be done in time. I *might* be able to pull off a rear axle swap with parking brake actuator repair in that time-frame - 24 bolts per truck, plus 1 brake line fitting per truck and 1 parking brake cable connection per truck. 4.10 in the rear, 3.55 in the front - no front driveshaft. Rear ABS sensor reads the ring gear, so it should not freak out with the different ratio. Then I need to plan on a time after GS Cookie Season to do the front axle swap, complete with new hubs and rotors and shocks and at least the upper ball joints... Or I can just fix the rear brake line for now to get Green Truck rolling again and just start stripping Black Truck of all the goodies I want to put into Green Truck. A stretch goal would be to swap the lift shackles and rear shocks in, too, to get a stable rear end height. That's only 16 more bolts. Right rear shackle on Green Truck is rotten/cracked, so I *should* do that sooner rather than later.

In lieu of parking brake, I just tied together a set of wheel chocks. Put one under each driver-side tire, and the rope fits over the driver mirror so it doesn't get buried in the snow. I had to do this because the truck will now back down the driveway against engine compression with the truck in reverse. Don't need to wake up to find it half-way into the street, with a ticket on it and a plow berm piled up around it, or a vehicle slammed into it...
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Old 12-06-2018, 03:03 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Oh if your peak torque is at 2750 then I guess the smaller tires aren't really that bad. With my car my peak torque is about 2200-2500, so I try to make sure that my RPM at 65 mph is close to there, since I do mostly highway driving.

Not using the wider MT tires is a good choice--especially given that you do not have 4wd at the moment. RWD is definitely a pain in the snow.

February or March sounds reasonable to get something done--I would definitely underestimate what could be done so I'm not stuck with a half done project at the end. It sounds like if you just fix your brake line, you would be able to have the other truck out in time and have your Explorer driveable again. Personally I would be nervous to drive it if one of the shackles is cracked.

I distinctly remember a thread on a different forum where a guy (now passed away) was somehow able to get 30 mpg on his Ford Explorer. If you're interested at all, I probably could find it again.
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Old 12-06-2018, 03:33 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I did find it actually. Here you go
https://www.explorerforum.com/forums...ge-tips.44372/
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Old 12-07-2018, 06:08 PM   #37 (permalink)
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<looks at calendar>

Cookie Go Day is Saturday, Feb 9, 2019. That's only 9 weekends from today, including the X-Mas and New Year's holidays, and I must assume the cookies get picked up the weekend before, so I net 8 weekends. I'll have some time during the holidays, but the family won't like me being in the garage all that time. With two kids and the rest of the usual homeowner stuff, I don't get to use too many weekends for garage time.

I can commit to the brake line, and possibly the shackles, if a bolt doesn't break during removal. Those can be done reasonably on a "put the butt end of the Green Truck halfway into the garage, wear warm clothing, use the 300-Watt Halogen lamp as a heat source" basis, so long as it isn't snowing/isn't excessively windy. Not doing an axle swap without being able to close the door and turn on the heater, though.

Black Truck is just for parts. I doubt I can strip it completely/competently by that Feb 9 deadline, and it is a royal pain to move it because it cannot move under its own power - no transmission/transfer/driveshafts. Can't run right now either - no exhaust/02 sensors/battery/starter. I'll nibble at it as time permits, and prep all the goodies for swapping onto Green Truck so I have only 1 truck's worth of rusty bolts to deal with for a given job on Green Truck.

Saw that 30mpg thread a while ago and have it bookmarked. SOHC so his engine mods won't work on my OHV truck, and custom tunes to boot. 2WD and an automatic, as well, so a bit more orange than apple, so to speak. With the Green Truck drinking a bit of coolant, I don't want to put synthetic in it just yet. Basically, I've got more things to repair before I can start modifying for mpg - need a good baseline. The ForScan app on phone and an OBD2 dongle will allow me to do some feedback-assisted adjustment of the nut behind the steering wheel. That app will also allow me to reprogram the speedo/odo after the axle swap and tire swap, program more keys, etc.
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Old 12-09-2018, 12:36 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Yeah, a good baseline is pretty important. A lot of times mpg tanks because of failing parts.
If you are able to work on your car halfway out of the garage in this weather, I applaud your effort. I can't even imagine Minnesota weather. 20s is plenty cold enough for me.
It may be more oranges to apples but I think that the guy has some pretty good stuff that you could do. I've been reading a bit of that thread. Some of those things are getting an air dam, synthetic fluids, gearing, and a 2.5" catback exhaust
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Old 06-05-2019, 12:27 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Thumbs down Sitrep: Green Truck is down. Again.

OK, so update on the situation.

I replaced the rear brake line in Green Truck with a custom-bent one. I bought a straight piece with fittings from the parts store, took off the old rusty one, and sat down and bent up the straight piece to relatively match the old one, then put it on the truck. Had to tweak a few bends to get it to fit right, but wasn't a bad job. Bled the brakes and it worked. Garage cleared in time for Cookie Season, so that's a win!

Drove it for a while like that - RWD still because of the busted bolt in the front flange. One day Green Truck just up and refused to restart in the parking lot at the grocery store. No amount of jiggling wires, rocking the truck in gear, tapping the solenoid, etc. would get it to budge. No click, no grind, no headlight dimming, no crank. Battery was fine. Called a tow-truck and had my wife pick me and the groceries up. 3 hours later met the tow truck driver (drove White Car) and on a whim tried to start the truck - fired right up. Got it towed anyway (locked into paying tow truck anyway at that point) and had the mechanic check it out. He figured starter, and I have a spare, so I declined fixing it. He did give me a deal, though: if I supplied the parts, he'd replace the front flange and reinstall the front driveshaft, no warranty. Trick is getting the preload right without taking out the axle, so you don't burn up the used bearings. I paid for that so I didn't have to do the work in the bitter cold we had that week. That worked well enough that I got 4WD back right after a nasty snowstorm. Drove Green Truck into spring, with a few more no-crank incidents (all cleared in ~15 minutes, not sure what's up with that - probably either a bad solenoid contact, a connection that gets too high a resistance when hot, a bad starter commutator segment, or something like that) until one day it started herky-jerky binding when backing out of a parking space. Took it over to a wide-open parking lot and dove under it - gear oil everywhere, the front flange seal had given up the ghost and dumped the fill. Unplugged the transfer case and did some slow figure-eights. No real change, still a bit of binding, but I figured leaving it unplugged would put less load on the front diff which obviously now has some bearing issues due to lack of lubrication. Drove over to a parts store, bought a cheap 3/8" ratchet set, a hose-equipped funnel, and a bottle of gear oil. Refilled the diff in the parking lot - gorram blind fill plug (3/8" square drive) was a bear to reach. Drove home carefully and parked it, spreading gear-oil stain and sulphur stink and all.

So, Green Truck is currently down needing a front axle transplant. Driving White Car again. Seriously dispirited about the whole thing.

Got another strike against these trucks: tow rating, or lack therof. As it turns out, the manual trans is an Achilles heel in these trucks, at least on paper. The 2nd Gen Ford Explorer is rated 2300lb towing with OHV V6/3.55/man (what I have), 2800lb with OHV V6/3.73-4.1/man (what I can swap in from Black Truck), 4760lb with OHV V6/3.73-4.1/auto, 4740lb with SOHC V6/3.55/auto, 5740lb with SOHC V6/3.73-4.1/auto, 5620lb with V8/3.55/auto, 6620 with V8/3.73-4.1/auto. 50 square foot trailer frontal surface area limit. The wheelbase, brakes, axles are identical and approximate curb weights are not very different for all of those ratings. For liability reasons in case I hit someone else on the road while towing, I'm limited to 2,800lb so long as I can prove that I have the 4.1 gears swapped in. Without proof, or if they disbelieve the proof, 2,300lb is the limit. This is bumper-ball hitch stuff - no reciever needed!

If I want to take the family with me off-roading, my wife has made it clear that she will require A/C to have a chance at enjoying herself. (Not an unreasonable ask - she's got some lung issues.) A regular on-the-ground tent is already right out - she wouldn't be able to get back up in the morning (spinal disc issues). So we're into the need for a camper trailer if I want to go anywhere that's not convenient to a hotel. 2300lb/50 square feet means a popup camper, fabric tent variety, small. At least they are cheap and will fit the garage! A buddy here at work has used one in the past that had A/C, and he said the A/C kept comfortable even in the summer despite fabric sides.

If I want to have a wider range of camper choice (like a hard-sided popup, to get better insulation and access to bear-prone areas), I need at least an automatic trans to up the GCWR and tow rating. To swap that in, I will need: automatic trans, flexplate, automatic-specific starter and back of engine shim, engine computer with automatic calibration/connections, engine/trans/transfer wiring harness for automatic, steering column for automatic, gauge panel for automatic with PRNDL indicator, any other under-dash wiring that is different. With already needing to pull the entire top of the engine off to fix the coolant leak and/or swap engines, this is the same amount of effort it would take to put in a V8 or SOHC engine. And no matter what, if the other people in a hypothetical towing accident have a lawyer that can make it stick, I'd still be limited to the 2300lb rating based on the VIN of my truck, regardless of all the changes I made to it.

So, realistically, I will need a different truck at some point if this off-road bug takes hold. I can get by with a cheap small popup tent camper if the bathroom situation is tenable to my wife (campground bathhouse with flushables/showers or camper equipped with acceptable bathroom/shower.) I'll need to call around and see if I can rent one - this is a Ford Explorer, of the notorious Firestone Tire Blowout and Rollover vintage. Some places may still refuse to let me tow *anything* with it, for liability reasons. If I can't rent one out, and I can't find a dirt-cheap used one that meets the weight ratings to use a few times at bathhouse-equipped campgrounds, it makes zero sense to put any more money into these trucks - or any other 2nd Gen Ford Explorer.

So seeking some vehicle recs again, with the new wrinkle: 5000lb minimum tow rating - achievable with an SOHC auto 2nd Gen Ford Explorer, so if I find a zero-rust truck to buy and build with the goodies I have from these two trucks - and I can rent a camper with it - that's the low-cost/high-labor possibility.

Looking at: Jeep Liberty V6 or CRD 2005-2010, 2005+ 4.7 V8 or 2006+ 5.7 V8 or CRD Jeep Grand Cherokee to 2010, 1999+ V6 4Runner, 2000+ V6 non-S/C Xterra, 1999-2006 V6 Pathfinder, 2004-2011 VW Touareg TDI, 2007-2009 Kia Sorento 3.8 V6, 2008-2009 Kia Borrego, 2006-2010 Ford Explorer.

Exotic options: 2009 Durango/Aspen two-mode Hybrid (needs transfercase swap - AWD only), 2008-2013 Chevy/GMC GMT900 two-mode Hybrids (big tho).

Big, but meet the numbers: 2011+ Ford Expedition, Chevy/GMC GMT9XX chassis based 5.3 V8 SUV/SUT, 2005-2010 Toyota Tundra. Probably some others, too - the Explorer Sport Trac might fit, or Nissan Frontier, or similar.

A buddy of mine, ex-coworker engineer, has a 2006 Toyota Tundra Double Cab SR5 4.7 V8 Automatic 4WD truck with 6700lb tow rating for sale that is in absolutely immaculate condition, with every service record from new and 197k miles on it. It's nearly due for the next scheduled timing belt change and automatic transmission service. $9700. I was seriously tempted for a few days, and I test drove it, too. Very nice deal, but it is the size of a new Crewmax F150 - big truck! Not as big as my old 3/4 ton Dodge extended-cab longbed was, but big. Not an ideal or even desireable rig for off-road work - the sheetmetal is too nice for the narrower trails I used to do in my FJ40. Plus that's a lot to shell out with the known house projects I'll need to spend on this year - it represents me selling off all the unfinished projects/vehicles and not buying anything "truck toy" related for a year or few. Basically I treat it as "I need a new vehicle anyway, this is basic transportation, paying more to have a reliable vehicle is reasonable and prudent and can be budgeted for". 10 mile each way commute means the fuel cost per year isn't horrible - I just hate burning that much fuel. Maybe I could spring for skidplates/sliders to protect the sheetmetal, but it has new all-season tires so I've no "excuse" to spend for upgrades there. So I'd be commuting in it, and know that I won't be using that tow rating for at least a year or few, aside from maybe renting a camper trailer a few times in lieu of a hotel to offset the rental cost.

Thoughts, other vehicles I've not thought of that have 4WD, low range (or easily added via transfercase swap), 5000lb min tow rating, preferably not in size Huge by Large? Hoping to beat 15mpg gas/17mpg diesel average. Diesel only makes sense if it gets ~2MPG better than a roughly equivalent gas truck due to local "diesel costs more than gas" pricing. E85 only makes sense on FFV vehicles that get at least 11mpg on it, again local fuel pricing. Plus with corn planting issues this year I expect ethanol prices to spike by the end of the year or so.

Going to start another thread on "interesting cheap car" options vs. replacing the brakes/struts on White Car. Basically an option to give me something "new-to-me and nifty" to be reasonably happy with while I spend the effort fixing up the Fords and/or something else cheap I can trade/bargain for that might be more interesting to fix up instead of the Fords I've gotten mad at.
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Old 06-05-2019, 09:47 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Sorry to hear that the explorer isn't really working out. Personally I would probably want an older silverado or something to go off road and tow. An older Ram diesel truck wouldn't be bad either. My dad's truck can get up to 25 mpg mostly highway driving.

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