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racprops 09-09-2013 01:54 PM

OBII Smarter than us?
 
OK I have tried a lot of things on a 2000 Mercury Grand Marquises. (HHO, water injection with and without Menthol, resetting Air/Fuel ratios, many interrupts to the sensors, gas additives, throttle body mod, )

This is an OBII car. And nothing seems to be able to get better than 34MPG.

So the question is: Are these programed to keep ANY improvement from working, IE is the computer stopping me.

Has anyone had any real progress with any of these cars? (And I don’t mean hypermileing…)

I want to be able to make better MPG in all OBDII Cars.

Rich

JRMichler 09-09-2013 02:22 PM

Well, you could try things that are known to work. Grille block, air dam, wheel covers, belly pan, tire pressure, LRR tires, the list goes on.

Frank Lee 09-09-2013 02:23 PM

I need to get me some of that menthol-flavored water. Mmmmmm

gone-ot 09-09-2013 02:48 PM

Blame it on EPA / CARB emission regulations, because of these 3 facts:

• best POWER occurs at about 12:1 AF-ratio, for E0 gasoline.

• best ECONOMY occurs at 16-18:1 AF-ratio, for E0 gasoline.

• todays ECM's maintain 'stoichiometric' 14.7:1 AF-ratio in "closed-loop" operation for catalytic convertor operation.

racprops 09-09-2013 02:57 PM

I have devices that allow me to reset the Air/Fuel ratios, and found that on the car 16.7 to 1 gave apox 34MPG with a major lost of take off power.

So IF I had a way to change that setting automatically for cursing (a lean cruse setting) then I could gain something like 5MPG, but at a cost of around $200.00 to $300.00 to have the computer reprogrammed don't consider it cost effective.

As for the other ideas, A) the car has a air dam, aerodynamic side mirrors, hidden wipers (Under the hood) B) The rest are impractical, I ran stock tires and got 27 to 30MPG and then switched to safer 18 inch sticky tires so I can hold the road and stop best and lost 1 to 2 MPG, I will take my safety over MPG any day.

I am in AZ with 115+ temps and have a hard time keeping the engine under 200+ in the summer...

Rich


Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Tele man (Post 389537)
Blame it on EPA / CARB emission regulations, because of these 3 facts:

• best POWER occurs at about 12:1 AF-ratio, for E0 gasoline.

• best ECONOMY occurs at 16-18:1 AF-ratio, for E0 gasoline.

• todays ECM's maintain 'stoichiometric' 14.7:1 AF-ratio in "closed-loop" operation for catalytic convertor operation.


RedDevil 09-09-2013 03:26 PM

On fuelly the Grand Marquis typically gets about 20 mpg on average.
34 mpg would be hard to beat. If you're not satisfied then maybe this isn't the right car. But a small car or a hybrid could almost double it if driven with some TLC.

The things you list in your first post have been proven to have little effect, if any. Just check them out with the search button.
As you get 34 mpg you'd know a thing or two about driving economically, but at the risk of elaborating the obvious:
- Get a OBD2 FE monitor like ScanGauge or UltraGauge,
- Keep a fuel log, and log anything in it that deviates from the usual,
- Digest the 100+ Hypermiling Tips and 68+ Efficiency Mods linked on top of this page,
- Pump them tires...

racprops 09-09-2013 03:45 PM

First, I have BOTH MPG Gauges as I found the scangaugeII is easily fooled by tricks done to the sensors (I had it reading 45MPG when in fact the car was only doing 27MPG. So I run a MPGunio as well.

Second 24/26 is more common for these cars as I also belong to a Ford site and we have discussed this fact.

Third I thought I was asking this question on a site that deals with making MPG, making changes that make MPG.

Forth a funny thing happens if I pop it out of gear, the RPMs go higher...

( MY 93 Chevy and 91 Toyota don't pull this, both drop to idle as I coast...)

So I was hoping to find out IF it is the ECU.

OH FYI I HAVE seen a Toyota and Hyundai get over 60MPG on HHO.

And we did the full test, 100 miles: 50 Miles one way and then back same day full tank.

Rich








Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDevil (Post 389549)
On fuelly the Grand Marquis typically gets about 20 mpg on average.
34 mpg would be hard to beat. If you're not satisfied then maybe this isn't the right car. But a small car or a hybrid could almost double it if driven with some TLC.

The things you list in your first post have been proven to have little effect, if any. Just check them out with the search button.
As you get 34 mpg you'd know a thing or two about driving economically, but at the risk of elaborating the obvious:
- Get a OBD2 FE monitor like ScanGauge or UltraGauge,
- Keep a fuel log, and log anything in it that deviates from the usual,
- Digest the 100+ Hypermiling Tips and 68+ Efficiency Mods linked on top of this page,
- Pump them tires...


Frank Lee 09-09-2013 03:49 PM

Quote:

OH FYI I HAVE seen a Toyota and Hyundai get over 60MPG on HHO.
This is really all you need to know.

racprops 09-09-2013 03:54 PM

Really??

WHY?

Rich

I was hoping to get real info here...

I already know if I draft a Simi I can get great MPG as long as I don't run into him and the driver doesn't get mad at my tailgating him, (most do) or drive down hill all the time...

RedDevil 09-09-2013 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racprops (Post 389554)
I was hoping to get real info here...

Ooh..! So what I wrote wasn't real? Sorry for that then.

Fuelly is wrong? You say so.

The 100 Hypermiling Tips and 65 mods are no good, you want the REAL stuff? Sorry, that is just for members that know the Secret.
No, just kidding, if we knew anything better it would be on those lists.

You want info but we just have to work with what you provide. You did not tell you had those OBD2 gauges until I mentioned them. And I did apologise in advance, still you, well...

But do not worry, I will not bother you again.
(unsubscribed)

racprops 09-09-2013 05:15 PM

So all that has been done here is aero tricks and coasting??

I was hoping for more.

Oh well.

Rich

Flakbadger 09-09-2013 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racprops (Post 389550)
Third I thought I was asking this question on a site that deals with making MPG, making changes that make MPG.

Hey, welcome to Ecomodder! We do make changes to improve MPG. If you search and read a bit, you will find that HHO has been thoroughly debunked, increased tire pressure has been shown to greatly improve MPG, and the biggest MPG mod you can make is driving something a little smaller (EDIT: Diesel Dave, you stay out of this!). Is there any possibility of trading in the land yacht for something else?

Anyway there's no magic bullet here, just lots of scattershot: small changes which add up to a bigger improvement.

I understand you are frustrated, but nobody here is going to say "just add a hydrogen generator and get 83,734% better fuel economy." If you spend some time getting familiar with the hypermiling tips and use those which are most applicable, you might find that they improve your mileage quite a lot--and mid-30s in something that big is already pretty impressive.

Final note: My old Ford used to stay high-revved in neutral at speed. It's a Ford thing.

~Matt

racprops 09-09-2013 06:25 PM

Thanks but I am not a newbe..been around on and off for a few years.

I have been testing a few of the MPG devices..and did some 14 cars with HHO and got two really insane improvements...

But over all these seem to be flukes.

So at this time I know I cannot do ANY thing with German made computers, and it looks like nearly nothing with USA made ECUs but am starting to think Japan made ECUs are open to changes.

As for can it be done?? Read this:

50+ MPG Cars Prohibited in the U.S. and Canada | 2012 The Big Picture

Mind blowing...

A few years ago Top Gear from England did a driving challenge where the three hosts were sent into Europe to buy three cars and then drive them 740 miles on ONE TANK OF GAS!!!

Two of the cars were enco models rated at (Really) 75 MPG and 56 MPG and one Jag was rated at 35MPG. I believe all three were diesels.

Any way all three MADE the trip without running out of gas!!!

I also know that 1980s Camaros with tuneport injection with a Easter egg in the ECU turned on were able to get 35 MPG...(the Easter egg was a special lean burn cruse setting...) I bet with a few tricks like higher gearing and some super tuning they might even get 40MPG...

So I know it can be done, what I am hoping that it can be reto fitted to other cars.

I was hoping people on this site had done more...

Rich

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flakbadger (Post 389577)
Hey, welcome to Ecomodder! We do make changes to improve MPG. If you search and read a bit, you will find that HHO has been thoroughly debunked, increased tire pressure has been shown to greatly improve MPG, and the biggest MPG mod you can make is driving something a little smaller (EDIT: Diesel Dave, you stay out of this!). Is there any possibility of trading in the land yacht for something else?

Anyway there's no magic bullet here, just lots of scattershot: small changes which add up to a bigger improvement.

I understand you are frustrated, but nobody here is going to say "just add a hydrogen generator and get 83,734% better fuel economy." If you spend some time getting familiar with the hypermiling tips and use those which are most applicable, you might find that they improve your mileage quite a lot--and mid-30s in something that big is already pretty impressive.

Final note: My old Ford used to stay high-revved in neutral at speed. It's a Ford thing.

~Matt


UltArc 09-09-2013 07:34 PM

A lot of us stick with simple things. As mentioned, aerodynamic changes, gearing, more elbow grease than messing with ECUs. You are welcome to do some searches, which surely you are familiar with seeing your experience here (since 2009, impressive!).

Some recent ECU tuning showing great results can be seen here: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ild-26722.html

I understand you have high expectations, but your writing seems like it has a tone that we are ignorant, or under performing. From what you've written, it is clear you have experience with driving efficiently, and experimenting with different cars- but you may experience hostility with a more hostile tone. A lot of us, specifically mentioning me, want a mod that will pay for itself. My grille block isn't made of platinum, it's made of coroplast and weather sealant.

I don't mess with tuning because of my warranty. Others for other reasons. We all want to help get each other get better fuel economy, but we try to do that in a friendly environment, too.

And as much as I love Top Gear, over the years, they have done a lot of things that are either clearly scripted, or sabotage themselves. I take their performance as entertainment with cars, more than factual information.

racprops 09-09-2013 07:39 PM

If you read the answers I received you might understand my slight lean toward less than happy..responses.

Thanks for the link BUT it is for a pre-OBII car and a import and already a enco car as well...

So I guess there is no help here...

Tell you what I will be looking into gas vapor next and if I get a working system I come back and tell you guys about it.

Projection is 100 to 200 MPG.

Rich

UltArc 09-09-2013 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racprops (Post 389618)
If you read the answers I received you might understand my slight lean toward less than happy..responses.

Thanks for the link BUT it is for a pre-OBII car and a import and already a enco car as well...

So I guess there is no help here...

Tell you what I will be looking into gas vapor next and if I get a working system I come back and tell you guys about it.

Projection is 100 to 200 MPG.

Rich

I don't know of any 400+ horsepower cars that also get that kind of fuel economy. I am guessing enco means economy- not being snide, a genuine guess, I haven't heard that term before, but Talons have never seemed like they are real gas savers (probably the same thing people say about the Mustang lol). Because alternate mods like that have such mixed results, it usually ends up in the Unicorn Stall until the performance is proven in multiple scenarios and different vehicles.

And I get your response about tone, but fighting fire with fire just burns everyone. At least if we fake a smile, :), and act polite, it makes the person still being hostile be the person at fault. Please document your findings and methods in detail, because if you get it to work wicked well, we will be interested :)

Frank Lee 09-09-2013 07:56 PM

Quote:

Projection is 100 to 200 MPG.

Rich
Indeed.

doviatt 09-09-2013 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racprops (Post 389574)
So all that has been done here is aero tricks and coasting??

I was hoping for more.

Oh well.

Rich

Pretty much just aero tricks and coasting. A little bit of math and physics but that isn't very important as it seem to just limit our desired advancements.

What can you teach us? Are you saying the computers are hobbled and we just need to unlock the Easter eggs? Why would the auto companies that are now challenged with finding high MPG do this?

racprops 09-09-2013 08:35 PM

I will.

My 300 HP Car does get 30MPG so it is not too far fetched.

I was disappointed to get such answers, I really thought people here had done more.

The thing is even car makers admit that only 20% of the fuel put into your engine make HP, the rest is wasted, some burn after the power stock some burn on its way out of the engine and what is left is burned by the cat.

Problem is ONLY the gas VAPOR that is made during the compression and power stock is able to make power.

NOW IF you can convert the gas to vapor and only use what is needed for power ( the 20%) what will you get??

A 80% in savings. so 80% X say 30MPG = 150MPG?

Rich

doviatt 09-09-2013 08:39 PM

At what speed?

racprops 09-09-2013 08:40 PM

Read this:

50+ MPG Cars Prohibited in the U.S. and Canada | 2012 The Big Picture

Or better: http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/07.13/50plus.html

The 35 MPG Camaros were sold to Australia, when the car owners here in the states talked with them they found out about the Easter egg.

I don't know if they are still in OBDII ECUs only the Camaro's ECUs of the 80s.

We get cheap gas and bad MPG overseas they pay more and get better MPG.

Rich


Quote:

Originally Posted by doviatt (Post 389632)
Pretty much just aero tricks and coasting. A little bit of math and physics but that isn't very important as it seem to just limit our desired advancements.

What can you teach us? Are you saying the computers are hobbled and we just need to unlock the Easter eggs? Why would the auto companies that are now challenged with finding high MPG do this?


racprops 09-09-2013 08:52 PM

I can tell you one thing that helps cause this poor MPG.

We have to compile to a OX standard that the rest of the world doesn't.

OX is made by lean burns... so we cannot run lean and have OK Snog testing.

I don't think OX is harmful to people etc, only to MPG.

Rich

PS This will not be a problem running on only vapor...

racprops 09-09-2013 08:57 PM

Highway, 60 to 80MPH..

Rich


Quote:

Originally Posted by doviatt (Post 389634)
At what speed?


baldlobo 09-09-2013 10:15 PM

you do know that north america has different emission standards then europe; along with the prolification of diesels which is where all those mpg numbers come from. amuricans dislike any diesel unless it's in something that weights 4 tons

ps. it's OBDII or on-board diagnostics 2 not obII

racprops 09-09-2013 10:19 PM

Considering that Europe seem to have higher standards I wonder why ours is different...

We would if they were offered...

OBDII my bad.

Rich





Quote:

Originally Posted by baldlobo (Post 389644)
you do know that north america has different emission standards then europe; along with the prolification of diesels which is where all those mpg numbers come from. amuricans dislike any diesel unless it's in something that weights 4 tons

ps. it's OBDII or on-board diagnostics 2 not obII


Frank Lee 09-09-2013 11:06 PM

VWVortex.com - Passats in other countries get 78.5 mpg, interesting take on why we don't get them

http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/reviews/to...vehicle/review
57.7 extra-urban = 48 mpg U.S. gallons but not EPA hwy.

UltArc 09-09-2013 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racprops (Post 389633)
I will.

My 300 HP Car does get 30MPG so it is not too far fetched.

I was disappointed to get such answers, I really thought people here had done more.

The thing is even car makers admit that only 20% of the fuel put into your engine make HP, the rest is wasted, some burn after the power stock some burn on its way out of the engine and what is left is burned by the cat.

Problem is ONLY the gas VAPOR that is made during the compression and power stock is able to make power.

NOW IF you can convert the gas to vapor and only use what is needed for power ( the 20%) what will you get??

A 80% in savings. so 80% X say 30MPG = 150MPG?

Rich

Cool, my 305+ hp car gets 38-42 normal driving, 43-46 on the highway. No vapor or hydrogen or anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by racprops (Post 389635)
Read this:

50+ MPG Cars Prohibited in the U.S. and Canada | 2012 The Big Picture

The 35 MPG Camaros were sold to Australia, when the car owners here in the states talked with them they found out about the Easter egg.

I don't know if they are still in OBII ECUs only the Camaro's ECUs of the 80s.

We get cheap gas and bad MPG overseas they pay more and get better MPG.

Rich

Why does it matter about being OBDii? Can't the ECU be flashed regardless? The CTS V on here has a reflashed ECU. The mileage is okay for pure highway, it doesn't seem like its had much of an affect on the city performance- but it's been done.

racprops 09-09-2013 11:21 PM

NOW your the man I want to talk with.

A) What car??

Quote:

Originally Posted by UltArc (Post 389663)
Cool, my 305+ hp car gets 38-42 normal driving, 43-46 on the highway. No vapor or hydrogen or anything.

I feel it is the OBDII ECU that is stopping any improvment.

I have not test any OBDI ECUs as they are too old for a product but will this winter.


Why does it matter about being OBDii? Can't the ECU be flashed regardless? The CTS V on here has a reflashed ECU. The mileage is okay for pure highway, it doesn't seem like its had much of an affect on the city performance- but it's been done.

Where can I get my computer reflashed for MPG??

And thanks.

Rich

Frank Lee 09-09-2013 11:24 PM

^Interesting "quote" presentation...

racprops 09-09-2013 11:26 PM

Well I was trying to answer point by point, so bold was the only way to show a new line.

I have used it in other threads.

Rich

racprops 09-09-2013 11:31 PM

I do get a kick out of hypermilling...

I used to own a 56 Studebaker witth a 3 speed with overdrive and guess what extra feature this OD Had??

Free wheeling..in one setting it would allow the car to free wheel, step off the gas and the transmission was disconnected and the engine would drop to idle, step on the gas and once the engine's RPMs caught up with the drive shafts speed it would lock up.

Until you lifted your foot again. In this setting you had no engine brakeing.

Rich

gone-ot 09-09-2013 11:58 PM

My '53 flathead Ford Crown Victoria had a 3-spd "free-wheeling" OD transmission with electric solenoid engagement. I believe it was a dealer-installed unit, not factory OEM.

jamesqf 09-10-2013 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racprops (Post 389594)
A few years ago Top Gear from England did a driving challenge where the three hosts were sent into Europe to buy three cars and then drive them 740 miles on ONE TANK OF GAS!!!

Yes, and I can do that any month I decide to completely fill the tank of my Honda Insight. (The cheap stations have discounts for cash, and accept bills, so I only put in $20 at a time - currently about 2/3 of a tank.)

Quote:

Two of the cars were enco models rated at (Really) 75 MPG and 56 MPG and one Jag was rated at 35MPG. I believe all three were diesels.
You have to remember that an Imperial gallon is 25% more than a US gallon, so that'd be 60, 45, and 28 mpg in the US. In addition, those cars were probably lighter and more aerodynamic than what's available on the US market.

Quote:

Any way all three MADE the trip without running out of gas!!!
Lastly, you have to remember that Top Gear is an effing TV show. They do not report the truth, unless the truth is also (in their particular offbeat worldview) entertaining. If they think it's "entertaining" to film a Tesla running out of battery, then that's what they do, regardless of whether or not it did run out.

UltArc 09-10-2013 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racprops (Post 389665)
NOW your the man I want to talk with.

A) What car??
The car in my signature.


Where can I get my computer reflashed for MPG??
I don't know. I am not very familiar with Phoenix, Arizona, or tuners for the M GM. If I wanted to do it, I would borrow a tuner, go to one of the local tune shops, or buy myself a tuner. Depends on what I wanted, and how much I want to spend
And thanks.

Rich

One character(minimum message size).

racprops 09-10-2013 12:35 AM

Bet it was a Borg Warner OD they made two basic models back then.

Rich

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Tele man (Post 389669)
My '53 flathead Ford Crown Victoria had a 3-spd "free-wheeling" OD transmission with electric solenoid engagement. I believe it was a dealer-installed unit, not factory OEM.


racprops 09-10-2013 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesqf (Post 389670)
Yes, and I can do that any month I decide to completely fill the tank of my Honda Insight. (The cheap stations have discounts for cash, and accept bills, so I only put in $20 at a time - currently about 2/3 of a tank.)



You have to remember that an Imperial gallon is 25% more than a US gallon, so that'd be 60, 45, and 28 mpg in the US. In addition, those cars were probably lighter and more aerodynamic than what's available on the US market.



Lastly, you have to remember that Top Gear is an effing TV show. They do not report the truth, unless the truth is also (in their particular offbeat worldview) entertaining. If they think it's "entertaining" to film a Tesla running out of battery, then that's what they do, regardless of whether or not it did run out.

I did not see any cheating and the Tesla did have range problems...

And all the cars I know of would have trouble going any where over 400 to 500 miles on a tank.

I did do 400 in my 93 Chevy Van BUT it has a 36 Gal. Tank.

Rich

racprops 09-10-2013 12:40 AM

OK..
Originally Posted by racprops View Post
NOW your the man I want to talk with.

A) What car??
The car in my signature.

This car?? 2012 Mustang 3.7/M - '12 Ford Mustang 3.7

I take it is stock then.


Where can I get my computer reflashed for MPG??
I don't know. I am not very familiar with Phoenix, Arizona, or tuners for the M GM. If I wanted to do it, I would borrow a tuner, go to one of the local tune shops, or buy myself a tuner. Depends on what I wanted, and how much I want to spend.

Ok so your not getting that high mileage from a Tune.

I would consider mailing a ECU to a tuner...

Oh well still that is good for a stock car.

Thanks.

Rich

doviatt 09-10-2013 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racprops (Post 389675)
I did not see any cheating and the Tesla did have range problems...

And all the cars I know of would have trouble going any where over 400 to 500 miles on a tank.

I did do 400 in my 93 Chevy Van BUT it has a 36 Gal. Tank.

Rich

Have you ever seen a skateboarder land a trick? If yes, and it was on video it was an edit. Editing makes the cheating magically go away so you don't see it.

racprops 09-10-2013 12:58 AM

"Imperial gallon is 25% more than a US gallon, so that'd be 60, 45, and 28 mpg in the US."

OK Well my Ford gets 30 MPG on a US Gal. and I am lucky if it will go 400 miles on its 19 Gal Tank.

OK Lets consider the article:

The Silver Bear Cafe

I don't see any cheating there.

And I still don't see any cheating on Top Gear...

Rich

doviatt 09-10-2013 01:19 AM

Just for comparison my car goes over 500 miles on a 10 US gallon tank. :)


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