Oil additive testing

[suspectnumber961]

I'm wondering if maybe the reason boron works to reduce friction (if it does) is that it factors out the remaining particulates/sludge by depositing the boron oxide layers on the metal parts?

Looks like it will be very difficult to remove most remaining particulates...since the engine continues to produce them? Running a good fuel additive like Techron at 2 oz/10G might help keep this down?

[bwilson4web]

The theory backed up by Argonne Labs analysis is the boric acid forms a plainar surface that provides layers on the exposed surfaces. But the bottom layer is chemically attached to the underlying metal surface. However, I could find nothing describing the effects of existing gunk and varnish on the boric surface formation or more importantly, imperfections that may be fixed by the boric acid layers.

Certainly, my few data points suggest the detergent effects of boric acid appears to lift previously deposited, fine material back into suspension and into the oil film between the rubbing surfaces.

If I had to do it all over again, I would start by draining the oil and throughly cleaning every exposed surface. Then reassemble and do the motorsilk treatment. But now I have to deal with the engine as it is.

My plan is to:

1. bench test layer traps - one is a passive, loose weave fiberglass mat with the edges epoxy sealed and washed to remove loose fibers. The other is a layered fiber mat with electrostatic charged, particulate trap.
2. drop pan, install pan liner trap and gasket - this will be the operational test.

As for motorsilk, I can draw no conclusions from this test. The residual gunk and varnish has made it impossible to measure any improvement.

Bob Wilson

[slowmover]

Motorsilk & Boron

More

I don't see much beyond this. But it doesn't mean that a PM or two might not dig up some referential material or procedures useful to your study. It would certainly garner interest over there (and, like the amateur interpretations of UOA's, ought to be "fun").

.

[bwilson4web]

Hi,

I think there is merit in your suggestion. Certainly, no harm in starting a thread and seeing if there is any interest. But first to find out if there are limits on first time, posters.

Bob Wilson

[suspectnumber961]

In the spirit of jumping in with both feet...I bought the MS engine oil...gas treatment...and the ATF treatment....a while back.

On this page are more specific instructions on how much additive to use....

http://www.altboron.com/tech_data/tech_bulletin.html

I've already used the ATF treatment at 10 oz...while it seems that 7 oz would have been sufficient....at 1 oz / qt. No biggie.

As far as the gas treatment...the bottle says to use 16 oz per 20 gallon tank every 5K miles...which translates into ~ 10 oz / 13.2 gallon tank every 5K miles...but following the PDF it looks like ~ 1.3 oz per 10 gallons is the preferred dose....which I might use since I already have been using Techron Concentrate at 2 oz / 10 gallons. (won't use both) Since I've already used the Techron for a while I'm thinking the smaller dose of MS will be more effective over time.

Engine treatment is much like the ATF...a full bottle a bit too much but OK.

[larrybuck]

I appreciate all the hard work you two have done in sharing. I think this is a very important thing to prolong, and improve the "hearts" of our vehicles!

Before I found this post, I recently started Does anyone add Slickness to their oil? in the Central Ecomodder section, and practically ran into hate mail!

I surmise that most of the detractors had very new vehs. w low miles, and felt quality oil was all they needed.

Well: some of us bought our vehicles used, w high miles, and are willing to try to help our beasts live well as long as possible.

I cringe a little, because the prior owner of the best motorcycle I have owned, thought it fine to run just average Joe "CAR MOTOR OIL" in it!!

So, some of us are trying additives in the similar way a trainer is trying to help a 30# over weight person get back in the groove!

P.S. FYI: I know not to slick the motorcycle;... the above example had different reference!

[bwilson4web]

Hi,

Please do not cast stones or make idle speculation about others:

Originally Posted by larrybuck

. . .
I surmise that most of the detractors had very new vehs. w low miles, and felt quality oil was all they needed.
. . .

I'd like to suggest Ecomodder is a great place for experimenters, those who modify and instrument their vehicles and try to measure the effect. Sad to say, there is a lot of FUD about oil additives and the results of my testing are to make no recommendation about the one I tested. An experiment is not that the modification was done but whether or not a measurable change occurred.

In this case, my best measurements indicate other effects completely mask any benefit of boron CLS. So I can not recommend it over straight Mobil 1 motor oil. However, the other effects suggests follow-up testing that may have a sustained and measurable improvement:

• <10 micro particle reduction - the rapid increase in fuel consumption proportional to particle load is evident. I have some ideas that I will test in Petri dish experiments before trying them in the car. But I can recommend dropping the oil pan and cleaning every exposed bottom surface to mechanically remove the gunk and accumulated debris.
• thermal effects - I have the option of replacing the 82C thermostat with an 88C unit but just dropping in the part without measurement of the effect is not enough.

This is how we find out what works or doesn't work.

One of the sad things about oils and oil additives are the number of transparently . . . 'optimistic' claims that are made. It is one reason why I didn't do this test for quite some time and have no intention of testing other oils and additives. I don't fault others who want to experiment provided they bring some metrics. But Lord love a Duck, we don't need an echo chamber for 'optimistic' claims made by 3d parties who may make their living from product sales.

So let's look at your resources:

• Do you have some way to measure the effects?
• Are you prepared to spend $20 per sample to quantify the oil in the crank case?
• Can you step back from the product and do the heavy lifting, to find out?

This is how I approach the spirit of Ecomodder, the experimenter's approach.

Bob Wilson

[suspectnumber961]

From reading some of the online "research"...it looks like a lot of the claimed benefits for MS involve diesels...high particulates for sure. For cleaner burner gas engines...maybe not so much of a gain?

Possible that higher mileage gas engines with much accumulated crud might benefit almost as much?

As for the fuel additive...I'm hoping it is at least as effective as the Techron....maybe more effective if it keeps the injectors freer. People report mpg gains from using it.

For the auto trans...maybe Lubegard has more serious recommendations behind it and from people who repair trans.

At 12 K miles/yr and $3.50/G and a 5% mpg gain...it might take me two years to recoup my costs for the MS additives. And even if there is no mpg gain...I expect some longevity gain espec for the auto trans...with all those borate esters coating the over worn steel gears.

A lot of this is conjecture....which seems to be the world I live in.

* Having reviewed the various MS sites...I have a renewed belief that I will see SOME mpg gains....though I doubt that I will be able to document them.

[suspectnumber961]

Finally got the Motorsilk engine additive put in. Ran the Gunk engine flush for 10 mins with a hot engine. (calls for 5 mins from a cold start). Used 14 oz in an engine that holds 4.5 qts. MS additive looks like milk....needs to be shaken.

Will run for 1K miles or so and then change oil again.

Also using the MS gas additive at 1.3 oz/10 G.

MS auto trans additive is oil colored and had no visible sediments.

[Phantom]

I used the last of the DEXRON VI in my engine to clean the engine oil passages (i hear it works well) Last change di you think it night be good to try?