Ontario suspends registrations of converted electric vehicles (update: ban lifted)
 

I'm looking for more details, but it appears the forward-thinking province of Ontario (Canada's most populous province, and location of most of Canada's conversions) has put a moratorium in place on the registration of electric conversions.

Not yet sure how this will affect the ForkenSwift, or whether it only applies to new applications.

Here's a letter in today's Ottawa Citizen from a member of Ottawa's EV group (who also runs a business doing conversions):

source: MTO moratorium short-circuits electric vehicle conversions

I'd be curious as to how much the oil lobby has to do with this kind of thing...

Or the fact that the Ontario government is a significant shareholder in Government Motors, along with the US & Canadian feds.

Or it may simply be a case of the Nanny State being annoying for no good reason. Sometimes it's nice to be coddled by Nanny. Other times, not so much :D

As is, the Onterrible Gov't takes more in taxes than that so called "oil lobby" makes in profits per litre of fuel* -- roughly 14 cents per litre, gasoline, or diesel. They don't need a lobbyist to tell them that.

Onterrible has a structural deficit, the current one is over 20 billion dollars. This is a freeze to look and see if they can shake down more money out of people; that, and Onterrible is a haven for nanny state style useless rules and regulations.

I don't foresee an electric car in my future, but I think it's an awful thing that my home province is trying to put the kibosh on people making electric conversions.

Unfortunately, they went this way long ago with kit-cars, effectively legislating/regulating them out of existence in the province, by treating them as vehicles requiring full compliance to the myriad of crash tests and other compliance regulations that the major automakers must file for each model they sell. So, really, I expect to hear that they go the same route with EV conversions. Previously registered cars might squeak by unburdened by new regs, fees, taxes, fees for the tax, and/or taxes for the fees; new ones produced by the cottage conversion industry might not.

*Canada Gasoline Tax Information - Ontario Gas Prices

Nice. Big oil AND government are slapping high fives. Welcome to North America.

Does this mean you might have to make the ForkenSwift into a hybrid? That wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

Re-reading the first post, it seems that the moratorium affects not just homemade EVs, but also commercial ones, eh?

It's a pleasure to have you.

Except the number of converted EV's in the province is vanishingly small. I'd bet there are less than 25 on the road. I can't imagine that the number of people requesting registration of conversions has shot up dramatically.

Unless...

I wonder if the moratorium may have to do with someone/some people exploiting the EV registration process to bypass emissions testing.

At the local drivers/licenses office, the ForkenSwift's registration was ultimately changed from "g" (gasoline) to "e" without any supporting documentation/inspection required. Note that "e" also grants an exemption from the province's Drive Clean emissions program.

Theoretically, anyone could walk in and say "my car is electric" and get their registration changed.

I wonder if the ministry of transportation noted a spike in "e" registrations at some office(s) in the province. Imagine a used car dealer or curbsider discovering and exploiting this trick, registering a bunch of ICE vehicles as electrics to circumvent emissions compliance.

This is how Ontario effectively prevented NEV's / LSV's from being sold (registered) in the province as well.

Not sure what it means yet for the FS.

My understanding is that it's an issue only with people wanting to change from ICE to EV status.

The province hasn't made any public statement on this. It was discovered this spring by a couple of people who completed conversions and were reportedly denied the EV designation on their registration.

Stupid dogs in the manger! They cannot take on the real challenges, so they pick on small fries like EV modders.

If these guys were around ol' Henry would have been denied a factory permit, and we would have been very eco-friendly (plenty of horse manure to go around for everyone's kitchen garden!) Sheesh!

MetroMPG -

When I see this stuff I look for an event that might have triggered the legislation. Maybe an EV got in an accident where the safety was called into question. But the "EV Registration Loophole Theory" does have merit.

CarloSW2

If rules are made to be bocken? then how close can one get to the edge of the rule with out quite bracking it? Would an EV with a tiny Honda 25cc industrial engine or equivelent be considered a hybrid? quite frankly the cause may be erelavent, the question is how to get around the problem rules.

I would call it a hybrid, and I bet the MTO would agree. But you'd better have a cat on that 25cc engine, and an evap system on its gas tank!

MetroMPG's speculation that this is a crackdown on fraud makes sense to me. Hopefully, they come up with a way for Ontarians to prove their EV conversion is legitimate. Maybe presenting evidence of the conversion to a court or something.

Most, if not all jurisdictions have motor vehical safety inspection stations. If there is a problem with fraudulent claims at the registration office, then all that needs to be done is to have the vehical go through the inspection station and have the station certify that the vehical meets the standard set by the province for an electrical vehical. That should not take more than a few months to get the standards established! "...trust me I'm from the government and I'm here to help you..." HA!

A 25cc engine? What about one of those model airplane engines? Less weight penalty, smaller, fits in your glove compartment!

I agree with everyone's points, above.

Nothing official to report, except that a long-standing member of Ottawa's EV group (with both official and quasi governmental experience with EV issues at the policy/guidance level) has just sent a registered letter to the minister of the transportation department.

From his letter I learned that to date the reasons being given verbally by staff for refusing "E" registrations (there is no evidence yet of written policy) vary from inquiry to inquiry, and have included:

I'll keep you posted. So far, no people with a flatbed truck have shown up demanding I hand over the keys to the ForkenSwift. :)

Being the lazy guy I am my EV is registered as a gasser (actually no real EV designation in this state without problems)

I would estimate that is how you get around the problem, leave it registered as a gasser, leave the tailpipe and put a fan on it, the morons in the smog test won't be able to figure out why your car has no emissions.

I suppose that's one way to do it. Not sure if anyone's tried.

As rmay stated, in my home state of Wisconsin, there IS NO E.V. designation with our Department of Motor Vehicles.

That also means that there is no way of tracking them. Which can be a bad thing. I have been at transportation conferences where the presenter would say something like that there are no EVs in the state, and then I have to point out that I drove there in one.

We have no way of tracking EVs, so the state won't say, "Hey, we have 1000 EVs on the road, let's install Charging Stations in public!"

As for smog/emissions/registration...
My motorcycle was exempt from emissions testing, due to age.
The Citicar was exempt from testing due to age (absolutely ZERO problems registering.)
The Metro had to go to emissions testing. Of course it has no engine or exhaust, but there was no "exempt because it's an EV" box on the form at the DMV test station.

I was eventually able to find the right people to talk to, and brought the car into the special testing station, many miles away.
They quickly gave me an exemption and thought it was a really cool project. They also notified me that "officially" I had broken Federal Law by "modifying the emissions system". They didn't bust me for it or anything, but did let me know that, technically, removing the exhaust pipe or catalytic converter breaks federal law.

http://300mpg.org/wp-content/uploads...on-300x199.jpghttp://300mpg.org/wp-content/uploads...de-300x199.jpg

An EV with a cat and exhaust? Sounds like something government would design. (Hey, wait a minute, I think I just accidentally ripped on the Chevy Volt! :o )

Also, whenever I tell people about what I had to do for emissions testing, without fail, people jokingly say to just bolt on a muffler and take it to the poor fools at the DMV.

That would not work. There simply would not be the pollutants going through to register properly. The attendant would simply keep fiddling with it, eventually get the manager, he would fiddle with it. Look under your car, see that you were trying to pull something, and you would get in trouble.

Also, most emission testing now uses a cable going to your OBDII jack. Many EVs have the car's computer completely removed. Even if it is still there, it will give error codes like crazy. Not what you want either.

The law on registration varies from state to state (and provence to provence as well, I would imagine.)
Learn the law of your state, and stick to it as best you can. Where there really is trouble with it, stick with the SPIRIT of the law as best you can, and don't get in trouble by messing with the letter of the law.

For example, there are places where you may have to do emissions testing just once, right after buying a car. Often EV converters will meet the letter of the law by registering and testing the car with the running gasoline engine. Once that's done, the car is converted to electric, still meeting the spirit of the law ( no emissions.)

Once the mainstream EVs get to market, it should help solve a lot of problems for the rest of us with oddball or converted vehicles.

In the mean time, lets hope that this thing in Ontario turns out OK.

Maybe Ontario should have look at every car that was registered as an electric conversion within the last 5 years and slap a huge fine to those that still have an IC engine. It's not that hard to notice whether a car has an engine or a bunch of batteries, you don't need hi-tech and expensive instruments to do that.

If you live in washington state, where there are no emissions standards that I know of, you just don't tell anybody anything, and you drive around. hurray! And if they make laws saying it's illegal, you still do it anyway, but just don't get pulled over. That's my advice. haha

I remember watching a video on YouTube about electric cars that were built by a small factory in Canada (I think it was Ontario) but the gov't wouldn't allow the vehicles to be sold at home. Seems the Canadians are sleeping with Exxon if you ask me. Either that or Government Motors, seeing as they are trying to sell the Volt pretty soon.

Sounds like zenn but there are actually 2 cars that fit that bill, seems like zebra or whoever sold the 3 wheel jobbers had a lot of grief.

ZENN made a neat little car. It's a shame they aren't making them any more.

I thought they had the best NEV-class vehicle out there.
http://gallery.me.com/benhdvideoguy/...12711970080001

From all that I have heard from Darin, other Canadian friends, and general EV news, Canada just hasn't been as friendly to EVs as it could be.

On the other hand, I have also talked to people in other places who said that vehicles are controlled so tightly that a conversion with two different brand headlights wouldn't pass inspection! :eek:

Looks very similar to an Audi A2 or Citroen C2.
http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...8&d=1271223758http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...9&d=1271223758

As for Canada, the Nissan Leaf will be available in Vancouver. Made me wonder if maybe a moratorium on conversions would increase sales of new EVs?

Nice little forum you got here. I have been saving for many years to get all the parts needed for a conversion and when I was told I couldn't register, I started calling politicians.

I got a letter from the Minister or Transports office (Program Development & Evaluation Branch) that outlined why there was a moratorium on EV conversions. Here is the highlights....

1) "first responders complaining"...have problems with EV Conversions
2) "insurance companies don't like to cover EV's"...calls to many tell me they will however insure a fully electric vehicle from one of the major auto manufacturers
3) "EV conversion is a developing industry"......EV conversion industry has been around longer than many of the major car makers...where do you think they learned how to build them

This all from a government that ran on being more Green and getting more EV's on the road.

What they meant was they are in bed with insurance and major auto companies (that the tax payers own in some cases - bail out money) and by more EV's on the roads they mean ones you buy from the big 3 auto makers. You know the ones, they dont go as far, the batteries are not that great and the over all quality had it been a home job would never have passed the muster for a safety.

More than likely total BS, a case of they heard that something may happen kind of thing and are afraid of what MIGHT possibly happen.

Are they really any different than a hobbiest car which can be insured?

More Green = More money for them.

Needless to say if the possibility of a large interest possibly loosing a few dollars occurs the government strikes back fast. Just like our local WPS utility, people aren't using enough power so we must jack up rates, by the way we still want to build another power plant. Makes perfect sense to me.

Oh and if I were you I would leave the gasser in and register it as a gasser then put an electric, but thats just me

I have heard from some members of the Ottawa EV group that there are individuals on the side of the conversion crowd actively working with the government to resolve this.

As for the "first responders" concern with electricity in cars, I would have thought that had been raised and resolved ten years ago when gas/electric hybrids arrived on the market.

That's not true, but so what if it is? Why is it the government's job to ban vehicles because the insurance companies may not like them? If that were the case, there would be a ban on about one billion riced out cars.

Melloche Monnex will insure a converted EV, provided it's inspected by a professional (eg. Rick Lane @ REV Consultants in Ottawa).

IMHO, they are probably trying to figure out how to squeeze the road use tax out of the EV'r that would otherwise be levied on a gallon of gas. Which I think is entirely fair....just as soon as they start issuing checks to the EV'r for the public health benefits of not causing the health degrading side effects as a petroleum fueled vehicle.

I think Gasstingy may be right-on.

Doesn't seem fair to deny someone their cool ride though, just because the beer-o-crats can't figure out the best way to tax them.

While nobody is yet paying EVers for the health benefits - there ARE many places that allow EVs to use carpool lanes with a single driver, don't tax them going into congested cities the way gas cars are, etc, etc.

I read about the Fisker Karma, that part of the plug-in hybrid specs on it are designed to meet certain "EV-only" requirements for several congested European cities.

Yeah that way they can quit missing out on charging the 40 or 50 small lightweigh EV cars in Canada higher road taxes than they would otherwise to penalize them.

I'm sure $1000 a year in lost taxes is killing the whole nation of Canada. http://forum.ecomodder.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
http://forum.ecomodder.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Nobody ever said politicians where smart did they?!

I'd say it's fairly likely a combination of the above... They want to tax them somehow and they have finally figured out that they need some sort of check/control that it's actually electric and actually safe... So since they are politicians they naturally go against the well known policy of not "fixing" what isn't broken and suspend it while they figure out if it is infact broken...

At least that's how politics/politicians works around here... If you happen to have smarter ones around you let me know... I can always move...

Yes...they can be broken. In the case that I am about to mention, even bent. If someone wants to put an EV on the road(one that they converted), they just have to bend the rules a little. Buy the stupid beater(car), 2) fix it up ICE style so that it's "road ready", (I know that there's a whole ton of cars out there, that with a little work can be fixed up, sent for e-test and safety and then registered. Do you Know what a very light Saturn SL1 SL2 is worth these days AND is still in relatively good shape? Nice and cheap in the 2,000 CAD range. )

After you get through the stupid red tape, pull everything out and convert your ICE to EV. There. Period. I'm furious at all the bureaucracy involved to get it done...We want EV's...Just give them to us!

Answer me this: WHO WILL KNOW or care...? E-tests are gonna faze out soon anyway. Just keep your head down, drive safe, follow the limit etc.
And so what if you got fined? It would probably "feel" worth it. Rebellion against a system designed to take liberties away from us.

Anyway, while I wait for the Tesla Model S to hit the shelf in 2011, that's what I would do.
Call it a "tune-up" afffter the safety/e-test.:thumbup:

Even if you get pulled over, when would a police officer EVER say: "Pop the hood, I want to make sure you have an engine..." (?) I don't think so. He'll give you a ticket for whatever reason he pulled you over, and be on his merry way.

I got a speeding ticket in my electric car.

Best publicity I ever got.
It ended up being on the front page of the county newspaper.

Maybe we do need an EV converter to get busted to draw attention to the issue?! :confused:

I'm willing to put money on it. You know? Cops are human... They would probably think its cool and sometimes wave you. I wonder, did he give you a ticket for speeding or cause it was EV was it combined?

My EV is completely, 100% legal in every way.....except how fast it was going. (I am in the USA, and meet all the requirements in my state.)

I DO disagree with what the speed limit was there. (Rich people area/speed trap.)

When I told the police officer that I didn't even have an engine in the car, he didn't even batt an eyelash.

I ended up going to traffic court, and the Judge there decided that there should be a newspaper article on it. (I wasn't about to say NO to a judge!)

The article ended up starting off about my speeding ticket, but most of the rest of the article was about the efficiency of the car, the environmental, and cost-saving benefits, and all the other positives around EVs.

It was good, positive, publicity for EVs.

Maybe our Canadian friends need to stage some sort of "silent protest" where they idle their motors in front of the capital! :thumbup:

Actually, I am Canadian. From Ontario and I've been setting up to buy the new Tesla Model S (coming in 2012) Excited. I will make something of a publicity tool out of it. It seems that it is road eligible here in Canada (according to the head office' comment) So the question is: Do you have the 50k+?
Well, I do...
And I will (and others) be an tool to drive down prices for future models. Its the little 40km/h cars (the "glorified golf carts") that the gov doesn't want on the road. And in a way, I get it. All they have to do is lay low and convert there car quietly for now until they (gov) can wrap their heads around an appropriate legislation. Instead of buying a 30k-40k mid class sedan, why not spend the extra 10k and get the Model S? the extra 10k will pay itself off in approx. 3 years. gas+maintenance etc.

I can't wait

Actually this does not surprise me. For years I have compared Onterrible to California (known for massive red tape and too much litigation) and frequently we have less freedom in Ontario. If I didn't have so much family here I would move. Pull the pickle out of your asp Ontario!

Do not litigate. If you do, we all lose freedom.
Democracy with lobbyists is an oxymoron.

:thumbup:Good signiture material:thumbup:

Where's that information coming from?

E-testing is one of 2 flies in the 'covert conversion' approach. You have to get an e-test every 2 years, and it's going to cause a bureacratic aneurism when you show up with an EV registered as an ICE for the test.

The other fly in the 'covert conversion' approach is insurance. The insurance co. will look for reasons to deny your claim should you ever have to make one. I'm quite sure that undeclared modifications are one of their top reasons these days.

Of course you could always tell the insurance co about the conversion, and not the licence people.