Open Source Hybrid/Hybrid Electric Car Project
 

Open Source Hybrid/Hybrid Electric Car Project

I live in York, SC and I'm starting the design and brainstorming process of a electric/hybrid electric car.
I'm not coming into this thinking that I know all the right or wrong ways to build, In fact it's quite the opposite.
I'd like to show people that you don't need a huge shop, background in engineering, large skill set, etc...so I'm thinking more of this project as an "open source" type of a project.

I'll be building a 3 wheeled (reverse trike) electric car design from the ground up.
I may include a small engine for electric generation.
I'd like to only use renewable energy (solar, wind, hydro) to charge this vehicle.
- In the case of a hybrid, use renewable fuel sources.

I don't what this to be too complicated as I want the average/advanced DIYer to be able to build this.

Guidelines/Criteria:
Keep total build cost below $10,000.
If full electric, total range of 150+ miles
If hybrid, total range of 400+ miles
Must seat 2+ people
Must not be open like a motorcycle
Must be (relatively) easy to replicate by other DIY'ers

My goal:
Inspire people to be aware of their use of consumable energy.
Encourage others to be creative and think outside the box.
Show people that they don't need to have lots of money to do something great.
Teach others how they can build the same type of vehicle for minimal dollars.
Provide FREE build plans to DIY'ers in the end.

Some IDEAS:
Why not build a set of plans (ie. the Vortex, XR3, or many others) that use parts that can be easily replicated by a DIY'er utilizing a common (in the scrap yard) front end and, easy to be found parts for the rest of the car (this is something I've been considering and will potentially need some direction in).
Why not build a community and provide continuous improvement on this topic (giving away all project updates FREE).
Why not apply the Wikipedia business model to this challenge?
Why not give small machine shops around the world the ability to create and build parts that DIY'ers can purchase for their builds.
Why not put money back in OUR pockets while helping each other with this venture?
Why pay $25,000 for a poorly performing vehicle from a major auto manufacture when we can build it to outperform for half the cost?

If you're interested in helping with the design, build, fabrication, promotion, etc...in any way, I'm all ears....PM me.
If an "open source" project of this type already exists that I'm unaware of, I'd love to know.
Many hands make light work.

I'm not sure I've articulated my thoughts and Ideas well, if not....please ask and I will fill in.

Thanks In Advance,

Wayne
SC

Ive had the idea instead of using an existing vehicle that was designed around an ICE was to use a kit car or rat rod that was rather open in design, weight and easy to throw together and pass as a legal vehicle for the road.

I've always liked the idea of a kit car, never thought about a rat rod...

I'm not saying that a rat rod wouldn't (and it would certainly be a sweet EV show car) but it would not be able to get the affordable mileage that we are shooting for.

The kit car on the other hand is a great idea and there are certainly pros and cons to it. Firstly, I haven't seen a try kit car that is set up as a reverse trike and/or a tear drop shape, have you? For the economy of the vehicle, I think we need it to be teardrop shaped. Like I mentioned above, there are plans available for reverse trike designs but they are "build from scratch" plans....not a kit.

I would be open to turning this type of a project into a kit car that would have components produced (production negotiated) by a non-for-profit organization which in turn would lower the overall cost of the build for the DIYer.

Thoughts?

Am I on the right track here?

Wayne
SC

Absolutly I am interested.

I will commit to your project the following:

I will give my design of the frame.
I will give measurement, etc.
I will help you figure out how to convert my design to electric (should be easy).

I am going to try to provide bodies at a reasonable price. My experience is the body is the hardest part by far, but with a good mold, I should be able to provide them to anyone who wants one cheaply.

Under 10k :O Perhaps a series hybrid would be a good idea, with light battery capacity? Something that would be really cool would be a CBR250R engine as a generator, those things should be very light.

Doug,

You are an incredible person.
No need to rush on giving me the measurements today, let's take time and do this the right way if it's to materialize.

Ok, so getting down to business....in your mind, is this Open Source Idea a good one?
Should this be fostered through a forum like this or hosted on it's own website?
Another thought, is there room for enough batteries to power the given (above) miles? And/Or include a small regeneration motor?

Side Note:
How did the DOT inspection go today? :)

Look forward to working together in the future.

Wayne
SC

i think the idea is a great one.

starting from scratch is easier in many ways.

Personally, I like a donor car with custom frame, and body.

I'll help, but I won't drive the project.

Love the ideas, keep them coming guys.
What about a small diesel engine that will run on Vegetable oil?

Wayne
SC

That's a cool idea too, although the reason I mention the CBR motor is because it probably weighs next to nothing, and has very good power to weight ratio. The compression ratio is high and the rod stroke ratio is high so that offsets the "inherent" inefficiency of running at higher speed, I don't know what the cam specs are but I imagine regrinding the exhaust cam for say 5krpm rather than 10k, and then retarding the intake cam position to reduce volumetric efficiency should give a small bump in efficiency. Since it's a bike motor it probably has stupid long duration, so this might allow stoichiometric air fuel ratios at full throttle. At 5000rpm you could probably make 15hp? which is probably adequate for high speed highway cruising. If not, a turbocharger might be appropriate, with "miller cycle" operation.

The only thing is, if you use say E85 for renewableness, the port injection kinda wastes some of the charge cooling. Perhaps moving the injector upstream would be good, if more of the alcohol is vaporized before it hits the valves then less heat will be transferred to them. Also the compression ratio would need another bump to utilize the alcohol effectively, which is hard to do with the short stroke messing up in cylinder flow and combustion chamber geometry. I guess that's another argument for a turbo?

Good words my man.
I think that I know this is a great idea, it's been tried before I'm learning now.

The key differentiators that I feel will change the outcome is the people involved in the design, having a clear direction, making the Organization a non-for-profit business, giving the participants the option to monetize their work (ie, you selling your body kit, etc...), and the list goes on.

In the past the focus was not only on electric.
It wasn't focused on the DIYer build.
It wasn't focused on the option for multiple power plants.
There was mainly designers working on the concept look but nobody working on the systems, suspension, etc, etc, etc...only the "look" of the vehicle.

I agree that the "ground up" approach is the best but like you, starting with a donor car has mega positives. Do you have some suggestions of ones that can be readily found in junkyards across NA for cheap?

Another thought, what about designing multiple cars?
One with a ground up platform, and one with a donor car platform?

Maybe even have a design competition for both....... * scheming*

I can be "THE" driver of a project of this nature...but I will need support as you have suggested.

For a successful open source project like this to take place, there must be:
1. "Who" - Main Driver and Board of Directors
2. "Why" - Unified vision statement, etc, etc, etc...
3. "How" - Getting a license, publishing results, forum for discussion, road map...
4. Have a Non-for-Profit foundation (OR, be "IT")

The above is an abridged version, this could be a topic for a lengthy post...

Wayne
SC

Also, see this successful Open Source Project currently under way (link below).
Main Page - Open Source Ecology

Their business model (if you can call it that) is rock solid and they have heavy community participation. I would love to get to know the founder, I think our project could be modeled a bit after this one.

Thoughts?

Wayne
SC

Wayne,

Interesting idea you have here. Good luck with it.

I will throw out my 2 cents worth of advice.

150 miles on pure electric?

Fagettaboutit!

Can a 150 mi. range EV be made? Sure. But, it's gonna take a stupid amount of battery power. And batteries are either expensive or heavy. If you make it heavy, efficiency goes to crap. No matter how efficient everything else is, if you have to drag around a ton of stored electrons, you are screwed.

I think the way to go is keep everything as light and simple as possible. A range of 40 miles will get most folks to work and back. Also, some may have the ability to recharge at work which would help a lot.

As for the ICE part of the equation, you could go the way Ken is with a pure series hybrid configuration. Personally, I think there is a better solution especially with a tadpole layout. You can find used small displacement motorcycles for next to nothing. Why not use one as the rear half of your hybrid. You get an engine, trans and rear suspension/wheel all in one compact package.

I think you will find that doing this is actually cheaper than putting together a series hybrid system.

The CBR 250 might not be quite enough. I would consider a DRZ400 or maybe a KLR650. The larger motors could run higher final drives and might actually be more efficient. And these bikes have been around awhile and are plentiful and cheap, especially the KLR. There are bazillions of these around.

My CarBEN EV5 design is open source. Seats 5 and is all electric. I am expecting at least 300-400 miles range.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ter-11969.html

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...eat-22529.html

I think an EV with an optional serial hybrid genset makes sense.

I like your thoughts on the CBR, I think it may be lacking a bit in power and slightly loud for the application? I'm not familiar with "miller cycle", I'll check it out!

I value your opinion too.

I'm NOT an advocate for E85, here's why. It takes more energy to produce E85 than it does regular unleaded and/or diesel fuel and it's less efficient. Yes, there is a marketing value to saying your car runs on E85 but it's an overall bad idea out of the gaits. One of my farmer friends in Indiana set up his own ethanol plant and is producing...he and I go round and round on the topic. However, his goal was to drive capital in other was than just farming. My goal is to protect the planet and help others to do so as well. Personally, I think the E85 craze will fizzle out as government funding does. Why not a small diesel motor running on Veg oil? Low RPM's, quiet, hit torque to weight ratio, etc... Just my thoughts, not saying I'm all right here though.

Wayne
SC

Pete,

Thanks for the comments, I value them immensely.

I fully understand that we don't want to drag around weight (or as little as possible)... That said, I think the challenge that we're facing is the lack of fluidity in the EV community on what the "goal car" should look like.
Here's what I mean. I do very little driving, most of my driving needs could be fulfilled by the 40mi range EV. My GF needs to be able to do 150mi round trip for her work each day but no way to recharge at work as she needs to make rounds and manage several different retail stores. Additionally, I have family and kids that live in Indiana and I'm in South Carolina. So, to fit the needs of perfect efficiency...I need 3 cars. One with an ICE, One with tons of stored electrons, and One very small and highly efficient EV for short runs.

My issue with this is. Its fiscally irresponsible for me (and most Americans) to own three cars especially when I'm only using one of them at a time generally (I work from home at the moment). So....what are my options? Build a modular car that any power plant (within reason) can be dropped in to. This will probably nullify the reverse trike design however make it accessible to a larger sum of individuals. My battle with this is, would we be straying too far from the goal at this point...to make an AFFORDABLE, relatively safe car for under 10K? Probably so.

I like your idea on the DRZ and KLR rear end. I'm not clear in my head how to make the front and rear work together seamlessly for the average driver but that's why I'm here, to learn and build a community of people that are willing to work together to drive this project.

I'm open to all ideas guys, these are just some thoughts going through my thick skull. :-)

Wayne
SC

To get a 150 mile electric only range you are going to need $6,000 or more in lead acid batteries and that is if you can keep the watt hours per mile down to 200 watt hours per mile, for that you will need a very light, sleek, small vehicle, but for that kind of range you will be pulling around 3,300 or more in lead acid batteries.
I think that when you get in your hybrid vehicle being able to tell the vehicle how long your trip is going to be is important, if it's a short trip it runs on 100% longer trip and the engine kicks in once you are over a set speed or after the battery pack is depleted a set amount, really long trip and the battery pack is only used for low speed driving and giving the gasoline engine a boost for hills and passing.

I don't like the idea of building a car from scratch, I've built vehicles for the super mileage competitions when I was younger and stuff like steering and suspension is hard to get right and make it last, doors are also really hard to build and have work right.

I'd also skip the motorcycle engine, because they are tuned for high RPMs and high power output without much thought to gas mileage, if there is room I'd opt for a Geo Metro XFI engine or a small diesel engine.

Hey man, I think you are on the right track here!

Still gonna say that I'm a fan of the diesel engine idea...open to others though too.

Battery technology will have to step up performance and drop in price before the masses will be able to afford it and/or will adopt to it for long ranges.

That obviously leaves you with a hybrid type of a combo...ditto.

I think building a car from scratch is a really good idea but that could possibly be the second generation one...work with a donor car first.

What do you think about a diesel gen-set/rear wheel drive combo?

Wayne
SC

The reason I wasnt for the 3 wheel design was that someone already did it, the Bug E.

Second, in VA its classified as a motorcycle and would require a motorcycle license. I think in your state its different as to why you have a Zap dealer who sold 3 wheeled EVs or did.

My issue with using an eco car is that they are harder to find, cost more and were fairly efficient to begin with. I knew a guy in Lady Smith, VA who made a geo xfi an ev. THose cars as is can exceed 60 mpg and with a 10 thousand dollar EV conversion it would cost you 100 thousand miles to break even vs driving it as a gasser. :turtle:

I dont recall the name of it, but Ive seen an EV that is 3 wheeled, seats 2 front to back like a jet fighter and leans into the turns. Maybe something alone those lines without the whole chassie tilting into the turns would be possible?

Guess we need to know how to get it past DMV first? I know back in the day many people who got on the Hyjet band wagon, those 4x4 mini cab over trucks that were dumped in the US for off road use. Many removed the shifter blocker plate, got them registered and has a street leagl 4x4 that got 40+ mpg. :thumbup:

In many states you can register your car as a hot rod or kit car by basing it off a vehicle that is over 20 years old (1992) so an early metro XFI that is rusting out would be perfect! or a regular metro and put the xfi cam shaft in there.
When building a kit car one thing to aim for is basing it off a common car that has issues, like rust! then you use the good parts like doors, dash, suspension and build your car around that.
Honda Civics are another car to look at, a 1992 honda civic sedan or coup is going to sell for a low price if the wheel wheels are rusted out and Civic VX engines bolt in giving you an engine that gets great mileage then either bolt the electric motor in where the AC compressor would bolt on or have the electric motor drive the rear wheels using the drive train from a rear wheel drive or 4 wheel drive vehicle.

Basing your vehicle off as many stock off the shelf parts and stock junk yard parts as possible is going to make your job easier.

There are several ways to go depending ong what you are trying to accomplish. My Three Vehicle Solution currently is a Gran Caravan for long trips with the whole family, 4dr Geo Prizm, and a streamlined city bike. GE locomotive engines use diesel engines to power generators for the traction motors. The book 'Solo' chronicles the cross country trip of an electric conversion of a Ford Escort station wagon. The newer small station wagons are space efficient, inexpensive, and can tow a small trailer carrying a diesel generator for longer trips. A combination of lithium batteries, regen braking, and ultracapacitors would be lighter and more suited to stop/go traffic than lead acid batteries. A diesel generator could set up to run on Biodiesel or natural gas depending on availability of fuel. A portable generator is always handy in an emergency.
There are good plans available for trikes that can be adapted to diesel/electric power. The hard part may be defining what the vehicle is meant to accomplish. Consider how we want to use our transportation options in a 21st setting of value management.
Thank you Doug for your offer.

Neil,

I see your links in this post as I looked over this before, my bad.

What do you mean by a "serial" hybrid?

I like what you're doing with the project, I really do.

I think there could be room for something like this along side/in conjunction with the idea in this thread.

For example, a base frame with interchangeable bodies (that include an interior) based on the individuals needs?

Just a thought,

Wayne
SC

So....hasn't somebody already did a 4 wheeled one too? The Bug E concept isn't really what I'm going for here... What I have in my head is more like what drmiller is building although I'd like to make it a bit wider, lower, sit side-by-side w/room for a 3rd or golf clubs in the back kind design.

I really like what Zoltan Bod (Zoleco - Home) is doing with his car, I think he's on the right track but he's not making it for the DIYer and/or from a donor car. That said, look at the WikiSpeed Project (http://wikispeed.com/)...I really like the modular design. Maybe combine elements of all?

How would you make a vehicle lean w/o the whole chassis tilting? :confused:

This project is starting to take some shape in my mind...we should all get together and collaborate on what "REALLY" makes sense...but I stick to my previous mission, build an easily replicatable DIY vehicle.

Just some thoughts.

Wayne
SC

Ryland,

Bravo on the Hot Rod/Kit Car comment.

I think that we also need to think about a bigger global picture though too.
I want this project to provide something to the global community that hasn't been done before...in other words, lets make an EV/Hybrid that can be replicated in many different countries, not just NA if you will. With that in mind, what "donor" car can be found in most countries...?

The VW Beatle is what comes to mind for me anyway, it's an easy front end and mid platform to build off of, they are readily available in almost any part of the world, BUT............the front suspension is heavy, and leaves much to be desired in the performance area.

Separate drive trains? How would that work out on the efficiency scale?

Wayne
SC

Grant,

Yes Doug, thank you!

I'm all in with you on the idea of powering generators for sustained EV re-gen. Diesel is, in my mind the way to go if this is the rout we decide to take. Much more low end torque to weight ratio. I'd like to see a usable, "value" added car come from this...not one that takes fifty buttons and switches to adjust to get it to perform economically.

The Station wagon ideas is one that I hadn't thought of, there are allot of say...older Audi's, Volvo's, etc out there that could provide a good build platform for a 4 wheeled EV w/optional re-gen build in the back end etc. A larger roof space would allow for solar panels to cover the roof and hood deck to assist with re-gen too.

What trikes are you talking about?

Wayne
SC

Best Selling Cars Around The Globe: The 100 Models That Sell The Most Worldwide In Q1 2012 | The Truth About Cars

The VW beetle hasn't been sold in the USA for nearly 30 years, but they did make 21,500,000 of them, the Honda Civic comes in close at 16,500,000 of them made and they are still making them, of course the design has changed a bit the basics of their design has stayed pretty much the same with a lot of parts that can be swapped from generation to generation.
Toyota Corolla is the current world wide top seller and they have built a total of 36,000,000 of them, so there are a lot out there, but they don't have as many engine options as Honda and their gas mileage doesn't tend to be as good.

I like where you're going with this.

Couple of points, how can we effectively use a uni-body car with this type of build?
-- Knowing that we want to design our own body for this
How would it be best to attach a single rear wheel to a car suck as the Civic (which BTW I think is a great car to use).

Wayne
SC

What is the argument/s to go with RWD vs. FWD or vise versa on an EV (regardless of 3 or 4 wheel design)...??

I'm inspired by this platform for an EV (Platform | Arcimoto) however I think it should be build to fit into the car category, not motorcycle.
Non technical review of the Arcimoto (Here).

I think one could be easily built with a modular design and side by side seating among other changes.

Thoughts?

Wayne
SC

Ideally, the electric motor should drive the front wheels, for better regenerative braking.

Why is that? Doesn't the back wheels have the same amount of slip/friction on the road as what the front does?

Wayne
SC

70% of your breaking power is at the front wheels, because as you slow the vehicle the weight shifts to the front, it keeps the vehicle more stable.

I personally like the idea of a 4 wheeled vehicle, a big part of that is living in an area that gets snow, with three wheels you end up with three tire tracks, with 4 wheels you end up with 2 tire tracks, I've also driven a 3 wheeled electric car in the summer on clean dry roads as well as on some dirt road and on well worn roads the rear wheel being in the center gave a less stable feeling.

Have you looked in to the Sunrise EV2? the trouble is that the design is nearly 20 years old so the vehicle that you stripped down for the doors and sub frame is also over 20 years old now and getting harder to find.

Using a unibody vehicle makes the project a little harder to a point but it also means that the body should have some stiffness to it, so cutting a whole side off of a unibody car to make use of the doors should not be a problem, a lot of new cars now glue body panels on instead of welding, spot welds create a weak point because they are a single spot of contact while two panels glued together end up being much stiffer, auto part stores sell to body shops so any auto part store should stock or be able to order these glues for gluing panels together, I see this option as being much cheaper then learning to spot weld.

3 wheeled vehicles are classified as motorcycles by the federal DOT. No crash safety problems.

3 wheeled vehicles are classified as motorcycles. Much easier to get the state DOT guys to pass.

Federal laws for motorcycles say the motor must be EPA certified. If you use electric, you bypass this. if you use an ICE from a car, you get past this as long as you have all the emissions equipment the car came with (read CAT).

Motorcycles do not have to pass emissions. 4 wheel cars have to pass emissions, which means operating OBD2 port with serial number of the car embedded in the ECU, which means you have to hack the ECU fundamentally, or build your own from scratch (not available anywhere).

I think you are crazy to consider an open source 4 wheel car.

So. My design uses engine, drive train, steering, brakes, suspension from ANY FRONT WHEEL DRIVE VEHICLE. Read honda civic, geo metro, or vw diesel.

My design uses doors and rear wheel from a Honda Civic. working roll up and down windows on both sides are pretty nice.

My design allows up to 600 pounds of battery/electric motor. With this, and a small generator, you could drive a LONG time.

My design is about 600 pounds for the body, chassis, everything except the drive train. so it is half the weight of any other car out there.

It has a heater, AC, windshield, operating doors, windows, etc.

so let me ask this.

I will give you my design. and I will sell you a body for cheap. or I will sell u a frame for cheap.

what is cheap to you?

If I sold the complete body for 2000 bucks, would you buy one? If I sold you the pieces for the frame for 1000 bucks, partiall welded, would you buy one?

I always thought it would be cool to take my 2002 VW jetta TDI which gets 62 MPG city now, and remove the rear end and install a 4wd hybrid electric rear end in it. I could come up with some electronics and battery packs to let me regeneratively brake and also have an EV boost when accelerating from stop lights etc. I can't even imagine the city MPG's I could get with a setup like that! If the right components and all were found, a kit could be put together for this type of conversion.


..

The problem is states like Minnesota now say that 3 wheeled motorcycles have to have the driver sitting upright with driver straddling the engine and it seems like more and more states are moving in this direction, Wisconsin a 3 wheeled motorcycle can't weigh over 1,500 pounds if I remember correctly and can't seat more then a driver and passenger.

I don't know how old a vehicle has to be before it no longer has to pass emission tests in most states, but here in Wisconsin if it's over 20 years old a 4 wheeled vehicle can be modified in to a hot rod and is exempt from all sorts of laws, that is why I suggested going with a 1992 Honda Civic as your base vehicle, even if you do need to pass smog tests with one it should be easy.
Some states I think ask that the base vehicle be over 25 years old, but I don't know the details there.

actually, you are incorrect. You can indeed have a 3 wheeled vehicle.

And in fact, there is actually provision for an enclosed motorcycle not needing the occupants to wear helmets.

I looked up the laws in Minnesota, but the laws are pretty standard across the country. And they are not changing any time soon.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=169.974

I'm not seeing the MN statute that defines a motorcycle, a member of our local electric vehicle club had the law changes a year or so ago and read down the list of changes that sounded like they would pretty much ban three wheeled cars from being licensed as motorcycles in MN, so if I am wrong please do show me, I don't like the idea of the law change or restrictions.

Ryland,

Follow this link below for the Minnesota description of a vehicle and motorcycle etc... https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/...tat.169.011.41

Subd. 42.Motor vehicle. "Motor vehicle" means every vehicle which is self-propelled and every vehicle which is propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires. Motor vehicle does not include an electric personal assistive mobility device or a vehicle moved solely by human power.
Subd. 43.Motor vehicle dealer. "Motor vehicle dealer" means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing or selling new and unused motor vehicles, or used motor vehicles, or both, having an established place of business for the sale, trade, and display of such motor vehicles, and having in possession motor vehicles for the purpose of sale or trade.
Subd. 44.Motorcycle. "Motorcycle" means every motor vehicle having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground, including motor scooters and bicycles with motor attached, other than those vehicles defined as motorized bicycles in subdivision 45, but excluding a tractor.
Subd. 45.Motorized bicycle. "Motorized bicycle" means a bicycle that is propelled by an electric or a liquid fuel motor of a piston displacement capacity of 50 cubic centimeters or less, and a maximum of two brake horsepower, which is capable of a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on a flat surface with not more than one percent grade in any direction when the motor is engaged. "Motorized bicycle" includes an electric-assisted bicycle as defined in subdivision 27.
Subd. 46.Motorized foot scooter. "Motorized foot scooter" means a device with handlebars designed to be stood or sat upon by the operator, and powered by an internal combustion engine or electric motor that is capable of propelling the device with or without human propulsion, and that has no more than two 12-inch or smaller diameter wheels and has an engine or motor that is capable of a maximum speed of 15 miles per hour on a flat surface with not more than one percent grade in any direction when the motor is engaged. An electric personal assistive mobility device, a motorized bicycle, an electric-assisted bicycle, or a motorcycle is not a motorized foot scooter.
Subd. 47.Neighborhood electric vehicle. "Neighborhood electric vehicle" means an electrically powered motor vehicle that has four wheels, and has a speed attainable in one mile of at least 20 miles per hour but not more than 25 miles per hour on a paved level surface.

Regards,

Wayne
SC

Ryland,

I wanted to make sure I wasn't "missing" anything in regards to the re-gen braking concept.

4 wheels in the snow...much better, I get your point.

Sunrise EV2...I'm familiar, they have a good idea but it's going to be too much general work for the average DIYer...I'm thinking of a much simpler "bolt together" end product.

Glue it, weld it, tape it together...whatever works! :) No really, I don't think the uni-body poses too big of a major challenge.

Wayne
SC

Miller,

Building a motorcycle requires a person to get a motorcycle license and affects their insurance policy more than a car would...just a thought.

Building a motorcycle is still a better option, I agree. That said, let's build one...get all parts into production and then build another...maybe a 4 wheel design (or improve the old one)? Why stop with one vehicle?

You and I are on the same page, why wouldn't the DIYer buy something like this?

Wayne
SC

Josh,

I like where you're heads at!

Wayne
SC

the laws for ENCLOSED motorcycles vary state to state somewhat.

For instance, in Idaho, Washington, California and many other states you do not need a motorcycle endorsement if you are driving an enclosed 3 wheeled motorcycle which has a car style seat and a steering wheel.

As I read the Minnesota laws, they are really confusing, but it SEEMS like to drive a 3 wheeled motorcycle you need to go pass the written test, but not the driving test. DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR THIS as the laws are really poorly written in Minnesota in this case.

It is clearly obvious a 3 wheeled enclosed motorcycle like we are talking is legal everywhere in North America. There are some questions about endorsements, whether kids under the age of 18 must wear helmets, but the rest is clear.

It took me a LOT of work to build my first trike. The second one will be 1/10th the work.

and easier after that.

the engine and wiring is the easy part. the hard part was getting the body right and the frame designed to work with the honda donor car.