"People who do math don't have credit card debt."

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I'm very new to 401k, so I may be mistaken, but I thought there were no capital gains when transferring the investment vehicle from one form to another, such as stocks to bonds. Wouldn't gains tax only apply if the funds are liquidated?

You're correct about 401k and traditional IRAs - at least as far as I know, but I'm neither an accountant nor a tax lawyer - but I thought we were discussing investments in general. I'd expect many people have both: the retirement accounts that can't be touched until age 59 1/2 (or whatever) without paying a significant penalty, and ordinary investment accounts that you can withdraw any time, where your capital gains & dividends are taxed.

I just fundamentally am against zero-sum systems like the stock market. For you to gain money, someone has to lose, or the perceived value of the company has to perpetually increase.

But the stock market is not a zero-sum game. Even if stocks never change in value, they still pay dividends. And stocks do increase in value when their companies do more business and increase their markets.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I wonder how the government will take their cut once everyone moves to anonymous e-currency?

Why do you think everyone would move to an e-currency? That's like expecting everyone to give up cash in favor of debit cards. And the anonymous part seems a bit of a stretch...

[gone-ot]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Why do you think everyone would move to an e-currency? That's like expecting everyone to give up cash in favor of debit cards. And the anonymous part seems a bit of a stretch...

Our BIG BROTHERS: CIA, FBI and NSA.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Why do you think everyone would move to an e-currency? That's like expecting everyone to give up cash in favor of debit cards. And the anonymous part seems a bit of a stretch...

e-currency is all but inevitable. I almost never use cash, and increasingly it's only used by old people, paranoid people, criminals, and in other countries as a store of value.

I feel that anonymity is overall a bad thing when all things are considered, so perhaps transactions will be traceable between parties.

It's really silly to need to carry anything at all to make purchases. Once my identity has been confirmed by multifactor authentication, the e-transaction should be approved. No cash, no cash robberies, and a reduction in criminal transactions.

[gone-ot]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

e-currency is all but inevitable. I almost never use cash, and increasingly it's only used by old people, paranoid people, criminals, and in other countries as a store of value.

I feel that anonymity is overall a bad thing when all things are considered, so perhaps transactions will be traceable between parties.

It's really silly to need to carry anything at all to make purchases. Once my identity has been confirmed by multifactor authentication, the e-transaction should be approved. No cash, no cash robberies, and a reduction in criminal transactions.

You forget about multi-national "hackers" and "e-crooks."

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

You forget about multi-national "hackers" and "e-crooks."

Can't eliminate it, but you can make it more difficult. Striking a healthy balance of personal freedom and security is always the tricky part.

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

But the stock market is not a zero-sum game. Even if stocks never change in value, they still pay dividends. And stocks do increase in value when their companies do more business and increase their markets.

Originally, the stock market was a mechanism to unload risk onto small investors. But then, derivatives markets emerged and now people sit around and bet on whether someone will eventually lift a finger.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Why do you think everyone would move to an e-currency? That's like expecting everyone to give up cash in favor of debit cards. And the anonymous part seems a bit of a stretch...

Forget about currency and store of value. Those are side effects. Think in terms of consensus without trust and programmable money.

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

Our BIG BROTHERS: CIA, FPI and NSA.

The CIA and NSA are in a struggle to the death. Right now an anon name Q Clearance is burning up 4chan/pol. It's an amazing time to be alive.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I feel that anonymity is overall a bad thing when all things are considered, so perhaps transactions will be traceable between parties.

As they are. Anonymity is extremely important but needs to be balanced by authentication. Blockchain transactions are pseudonymous, based on authentication.

[Xist]

Right. Make a secure currency that nobody could steal. Then I would feel comfortable walking around LA at night?

(Why does Google insist I am walking the wrong way?!)

Berkshire Hathaway buys profitable company with a history of good dividends and stops issuing dividends.

That slashes their taxes owed, plus, since they are perpetually merging, they are able to defer billions in taxes.

[gone-ot]

Money begets money.

Don't have some and you can't grow any.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

Money begets money.

Don't have some and you can't grow any.

Exactly right, and nearly anyone can have some if they exercise sufficient discipline. People confuse needs and wants to justify their poor spending decisions. It's as if people who want things more than money have little of either, but those who don't want things but do want money will have both. The wealthy live as if they were poor, and the poor live as if they were wealthy.

I once lived in the back of my Subaru for nearly 2 years. I didn't need to, but I wanted to save money quickly since I was new to the labor force, didn't have a girlfriend, and worked 13hr shifts.

Delay gratification long enough, and you'd be surprised what financial opportunities become available. With my extreme saving and a $40k income, I was able to:

• buy a 4 unit rental property in OK (50% stake in ownership)
• buy a 4 bedroom house and put 20% down
• get married and pay for the wedding and ring in cash
• honeymoon and travel with cash
• pay off wife's student loans with cash
• pay off wife's credit card debt
• sell wife's hooptie Pontiac and buy a Prius with cash
• put wife through a 2 year physician assistant program with cash ($80k total)
• rent an apartment in Portland while she was in school (she had a roommate and I had 2 roommates in the house, and still do)
• loan $50k to a friend
• maintain a 5 year reserve of living expenses

*by cash I mean pay for these with a credit card and pay it off every month, and banking the 2% cash back.

Now that my new job pays ~$70k, I'm able to give $11k/yr in charity, invest 5% into 401k, invest 15% into employee stock purchase program... and I should start maxing out a Roth IRA.

As a tangent thought, people say minimum wage isn't a living wage, but:

1. Who said minimum wage is supposed to support a family? It's meant to introduce new workers (kids) to the labor force.

2. Yes it is a living wage. Most of the world's population gets by on less.